Hey look! the FBI and NSA are data-mining and analyzing your data!

[mookiemookie]

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill

[Oberon]

So how does anything get done on a national level in a state of no government?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Oberon

So how does anything get done on a national level in a state of no government?

It works great! Just look at late 90's Somalia. Total freedom from government oppression, maaaaan!

[the_tyrant]

The truth about the internet, is that you should treat it as a public place. There are no secrets on the internet, and things last forever.


You know how in the movies criminals always discuss their crimes in a well populated restaurant? Ever tried that in real life? Of course not, if you did, you wouldn't be here, you would be in jail.

If you would not discuss anything you don't want others to know in public, why the hell would anybody do it on the internet? You shouldn't have an expectation of privacy on the internet, it simply doesn't exist

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

It works great! Just look at late 90's Somalia. Total freedom from government oppression, maaaaan!

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill

Does that cancel out the other quote then as all of the various dictatorship feudalism communitarian utopias Sky pushes have been tried from time to time and have been found to be crap?

[Méo]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Good one!

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Nah! Equaling the absence of government with the situation in Somalia is the same like people in the 80s were told to move to the Soviet Union when uttering the slightest left thought.

If you're interested in historical examples of anarchist societies, I can recommend you to read People without Government: An Anthropology of Anarchy by Harold Barclay. Sorry that I also link to a book, but I am sure it is a much better read and much more based in the real world than the crazy pipe dreams by Hoppe who makes the word liberty sound like a swear word:
"There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and removed from society." (p.218, Hoppe 2001 - Democracy: The God That Failed.)
More of his thoughts can be found on the brilliant divided by zero blog: http://dbzer0.com/blog/oh-gawds-wat-...ertarian-ever/
That's all I have to say to Sky's new god - Hoppe's ideas are neither new, nor original, nor have the slightest to do with freedom. It's funny enough when European economic-liberal capitalists call themselves "libertarian".

[Ducimus]

[Skybird]

I'm done, Oberon, but must correct a biblical legion of typos, which I will do tomorrow. So tomorrow it is, I think. So far I counted six words not having a typo in them, and all six consisted of one or two letters.

I really should have the Max Planck institute checking my typing technique. Somewhere in there there's a problem, it seems.



I'm not used to this kind of thing anymore, I really feel the lacking practice. Or I just become old. Shouldn't have allowed the forum to civilize me.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Penguin

"There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and removed from society." (p.218, Hoppe 2001 - Democracy: The God That Failed.)

Now try again - and this time in context:

" The situation is very different, however, and rather more drastic measures might be required, once the spirit of moral relativism and egalitarianism has taken hold among adult members of society: among mothers, fathers, and heads of households and firms.

As soon as mature members of society habitually express acceptance or even advocate egalitarian sentiments, whether in the form of democracy (majority rule) or of communism, it becomes essential that other members, and in particular the natural social elites, be prepared to act decisively and, in the case of continued conformity, exclude and ultimately dispel these members from society. In a covenant concluded among proprietor and community tenants for the purpose of protecting their private property, no such thing as right to free (unlimited) speech exists, not even to unlimited speech on one's own tenant-property. One may say innumerable things and promote almost any idea under the sun, but naturally no one is permitted to advocate ideas contrary to the very purpose of the covenant of preserving and protecting private property, such as democracy and communism. There can be no tolerance towards democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and expelled from society. Likewise, in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting life-styles incompatible with this goal. They - the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, indoviduakl hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism - will have to be physically removed from societ, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order."

In that chapter (chapter 10: On Conservatism and Libertarianism), Hoppe is about the way how liberty, basing on natural law and thus the guarantee for private property, can and must be defended against attempts by the state, democracy, communism to soften up this right and to erode freedom by limiting people's options to decide and act freely when partially and then increasingly expropriating their rights to indeed use their property as they see fit, and have private law treaties between individuals regulating relations between people lending their property for use by others. I remind of the tolerance.-paradoxon by Popper again: when the tolerant tolerate even the intolerant, the intolerant will overthrow tolerance and destroy it and the tolerant as well. When it is about freedom and private property, there can be no tolerance for those arguing that the state shall have the right to claim part of that freedom and property for itself, or that expropriating private property is okay on behalf of whatever an idea to excuse that robbery. When somebody enters your home and starts to steal items of value and money, you do not tolerate that, do you. You throw him out. When you give a party, you have any right there is to decide who is welcomed and who is not and must stay out, and a guest misbehaving you have the right to show to the door. This may be against moral relativism saying that nobody should own anything or that everybody is valuable and nobody should get discriminated by selectively not inviting him. But that is BS. And that kind of BS unfortunately is omnipresent in the Western world today.

[August]

Any society that tries to live by Hoppes law will just become prey for the society that doesn't live by those rules.

[Skybird]

Oberon! Fresh from the working table - guggst Du hier:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=1#post2070191

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Oberon

So how does anything get done on a national level in a state of no government?

I asked him the same thing several months ago and received a convoluted mixture of town councils, corporate bounty killers and building your own railroad in return. In short, neither Skybird nor Hoppe have any answer to that. Conversely, the whole theory behind replacing western democracy with an anarcho-capitalist scheme seems to be that the blocks will magically arrange themselves in perfect fashion once we knock over the current tower, as though shouting "privatization" will serve as the magic word to crack the door of Utopia.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I asked him the same thing several months ago and received a convoluted mixture of town councils, corporate bounty killers and building your own railroad in return. In short, neither Skybird nor Hoppe have any answer to that. Conversely, the whole theory behind replacing western democracy with an anarcho-capitalist scheme seems to be that the blocks will magically arrange themselves in perfect fashion once we knock over the current tower, as though shouting "privatization" will serve as the magic word to crack the door of Utopia.

So, basically, nationstates as a whole would cease to exist, becoming instead a massive series of states at a town or village level. A survivalists wet dream perhaps, but about as practical as a cheese sword and it would essentially last about a year (if that) before a group of towns banded together to form a small nation to pool their resources and conquer other towns. You see, we've been there before and it didn't work then either, that's how nations were formed, doesn't anyone play civilization anymore?

This isn't directed at you, Takeda, by the way, I suspect that you know this anyway, but it's in response to your response...if that makes sense.