Hey look! the FBI and NSA are data-mining and analyzing your data!

[Skybird]

The opposite to a Western democratic state is not North Korea or Russia, but is no state at all. A democratic state is a certain form of dictatorship itself. It usurps power that it has no claim for, it's existence cannot morally be defended without getting pulverised by inevitable contradictions any such argument has, it acts and behaves criminally from A to Z, and it never stays at the sioze that it is at, but necessartily must grow more and more from the size of a newly created, just beginning democratic basic order to total and complete state and bureaucracy tyranny - you cannot avoid that.

That is unavoidable for sure, because the people, the plebs, demand from the state more and more services and nanny-deeds and financial benefits that politicians are all too happy to deliver (in order to get re-elected) even if they have no moral right at all to run the underlying redistribution (which means expropriation of the one and shifting that to the other: socialism pure and simple) or to endlessly print papermoney (which necessarily needs the killing of a value-based money worth the name and replacing it with a system of meaningless papermoney that is only unguaranteed bonds, notifications of somebody's debts - no representation of active material values), or by raising taxes (which needs all citizens being turned into completely defenceless and weak victims of the state) what backfires also against those who earlier demanded the state to do more for them. And so more antispcially wealthy get taxed even higher, and the number of people living on werllfare rises, and economic performances declines, initiative and self-responsbility gets demonised as lacking "solidarity", and all the PC propaganda bull to follow. And so it spins on and on, into the centre of the spiral, and there it forms a critical mass sooner or later, and then it goes Bamm! WWII formed up that way.

All this, and the very existence of any state at all is morally undefendable.

And you can see all that happening right now, in every single Western country, from Germany to the United States. Everywhere.

My reading tips of the day:

LINK: Christoph Braunschweig: Die demokratische Krankheit. Der fatale Teufelskreis aus Politkerversprechen und Wähleranspruch

LINK: Kenneth Minogue: The Servile Mind. How democracy erodes the moral life


Some quotes worth to remember:

"Remember, Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself! There was never a Democracy that did not commit suicide." - Samuel Adams

“If you put our federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there would be a shortage of sand. (...) We have a system that increasingly taxes work and subsidizes non-work." - Milton Friedman

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill

"A Democracy is the most vile form of government there is!" - Thomas Paine

"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw

"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him, better take a closer look at the American Indian." - Anonymous

"Give me control over a nation's currency, and I care not who makes its laws." - Rothschild

"We don't have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven't taxed enough - we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much” - Ronald Reagan

“When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." - Benjamin Franklin

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship” - Alexander Tytler

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." - Winston Churchill

[mookiemookie]

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill

[Oberon]

So how does anything get done on a national level in a state of no government?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Oberon

So how does anything get done on a national level in a state of no government?

It works great! Just look at late 90's Somalia. Total freedom from government oppression, maaaaan!

[the_tyrant]

The truth about the internet, is that you should treat it as a public place. There are no secrets on the internet, and things last forever.


You know how in the movies criminals always discuss their crimes in a well populated restaurant? Ever tried that in real life? Of course not, if you did, you wouldn't be here, you would be in jail.

If you would not discuss anything you don't want others to know in public, why the hell would anybody do it on the internet? You shouldn't have an expectation of privacy on the internet, it simply doesn't exist

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

It works great! Just look at late 90's Somalia. Total freedom from government oppression, maaaaan!

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill

Does that cancel out the other quote then as all of the various dictatorship feudalism communitarian utopias Sky pushes have been tried from time to time and have been found to be crap?

[Méo]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Good one!

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Nah! Equaling the absence of government with the situation in Somalia is the same like people in the 80s were told to move to the Soviet Union when uttering the slightest left thought.

If you're interested in historical examples of anarchist societies, I can recommend you to read People without Government: An Anthropology of Anarchy by Harold Barclay. Sorry that I also link to a book, but I am sure it is a much better read and much more based in the real world than the crazy pipe dreams by Hoppe who makes the word liberty sound like a swear word:
"There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and removed from society." (p.218, Hoppe 2001 - Democracy: The God That Failed.)
More of his thoughts can be found on the brilliant divided by zero blog: http://dbzer0.com/blog/oh-gawds-wat-...ertarian-ever/
That's all I have to say to Sky's new god - Hoppe's ideas are neither new, nor original, nor have the slightest to do with freedom. It's funny enough when European economic-liberal capitalists call themselves "libertarian".

[Ducimus]

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Penguin

"There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and removed from society." (p.218, Hoppe 2001 - Democracy: The God That Failed.)

Now try again - and this time in context:

" The situation is very different, however, and rather more drastic measures might be required, once the spirit of moral relativism and egalitarianism has taken hold among adult members of society: among mothers, fathers, and heads of households and firms.

As soon as mature members of society habitually express acceptance or even advocate egalitarian sentiments, whether in the form of democracy (majority rule) or of communism, it becomes essential that other members, and in particular the natural social elites, be prepared to act decisively and, in the case of continued conformity, exclude and ultimately dispel these members from society. In a covenant concluded among proprietor and community tenants for the purpose of protecting their private property, no such thing as right to free (unlimited) speech exists, not even to unlimited speech on one's own tenant-property. One may say innumerable things and promote almost any idea under the sun, but naturally no one is permitted to advocate ideas contrary to the very purpose of the covenant of preserving and protecting private property, such as democracy and communism. There can be no tolerance towards democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and expelled from society. Likewise, in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting life-styles incompatible with this goal. They - the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, indoviduakl hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism - will have to be physically removed from societ, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order."

In that chapter (chapter 10: On Conservatism and Libertarianism), Hoppe is about the way how liberty, basing on natural law and thus the guarantee for private property, can and must be defended against attempts by the state, democracy, communism to soften up this right and to erode freedom by limiting people's options to decide and act freely when partially and then increasingly expropriating their rights to indeed use their property as they see fit, and have private law treaties between individuals regulating relations between people lending their property for use by others. I remind of the tolerance.-paradoxon by Popper again: when the tolerant tolerate even the intolerant, the intolerant will overthrow tolerance and destroy it and the tolerant as well. When it is about freedom and private property, there can be no tolerance for those arguing that the state shall have the right to claim part of that freedom and property for itself, or that expropriating private property is okay on behalf of whatever an idea to excuse that robbery. When somebody enters your home and starts to steal items of value and money, you do not tolerate that, do you. You throw him out. When you give a party, you have any right there is to decide who is welcomed and who is not and must stay out, and a guest misbehaving you have the right to show to the door. This may be against moral relativism saying that nobody should own anything or that everybody is valuable and nobody should get discriminated by selectively not inviting him. But that is BS. And that kind of BS unfortunately is omnipresent in the Western world today.

[Skybird]

Oberon! Fresh from the working table - guggst Du hier:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=1#post2070191

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Oberon

So how does anything get done on a national level in a state of no government?

I asked him the same thing several months ago and received a convoluted mixture of town councils, corporate bounty killers and building your own railroad in return. In short, neither Skybird nor Hoppe have any answer to that. Conversely, the whole theory behind replacing western democracy with an anarcho-capitalist scheme seems to be that the blocks will magically arrange themselves in perfect fashion once we knock over the current tower, as though shouting "privatization" will serve as the magic word to crack the door of Utopia.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I asked him the same thing several months ago and received a convoluted mixture of town councils, corporate bounty killers and building your own railroad in return. In short, neither Skybird nor Hoppe have any answer to that. Conversely, the whole theory behind replacing western democracy with an anarcho-capitalist scheme seems to be that the blocks will magically arrange themselves in perfect fashion once we knock over the current tower, as though shouting "privatization" will serve as the magic word to crack the door of Utopia.

So, basically, nationstates as a whole would cease to exist, becoming instead a massive series of states at a town or village level. A survivalists wet dream perhaps, but about as practical as a cheese sword and it would essentially last about a year (if that) before a group of towns banded together to form a small nation to pool their resources and conquer other towns. You see, we've been there before and it didn't work then either, that's how nations were formed, doesn't anyone play civilization anymore?

This isn't directed at you, Takeda, by the way, I suspect that you know this anyway, but it's in response to your response...if that makes sense.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Oberon

So, basically, nationstates as a whole would cease to exist, becoming instead a massive series of states at a town or village level. A survivalists wet dream perhaps, but about as practical as a cheese sword and it would essentially last about a year (if that) before a group of towns banded together to form a small nation to pool their resources and conquer other towns. You see, we've been there before and it didn't work then either, that's how nations were formed, doesn't anyone play civilization anymore?

This isn't directed at you, Takeda, by the way, I suspect that you know this anyway, but it's in response to your response...if that makes sense.

Basically, yeah, that is the fly in the ointment. Communities "must be kept as small as possible", but without a regulatory body to keep this from happening, what will stop a group of little states from forming a super state and absorbing their neighbors again?