Frustrated

[J0313]

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

J0313, your statements caught my attention, because I have researched the question of whether a WW2 US fleet boat could transmit when not fully surfaced and not found conclusive evidence that they could.



What diagram are you referencing? There is no diagram accompanying the Wikipedia article, although there is a photo of a VLF (receiving) antenna. The accompanying text makes clear why that antenna is necessarily receive-only.

Straub's site does not address radio transmission while at radar depth. It only makes a distinction between surfaced and submerged. I am unable to find any support for your statement that "they could transmit and recieve at radar depth" on Straub's site.

Straub does have a link to the external diagram of a fleet sub at the HSNA site: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/app...es/figa-02.htm
This diagram identifies the radio antennas as one long-wire antennas running forward from the shears and two others from either side of the conning tower coaming. Portions of these might be out of the water when the boat was at radar depth, but the end of the long wire closest to the deck stanchion might well not be. It's hard to see how any of these antennas could be energized with transmitter voltages when not completely surfaced. Even when surfaced, it would seem that heavy seas might ground them out.

I have wondered about the possibility of transmitting from a sub which was not fully surfaced. The first-person accounts only refer to transmitting while "surfaced" but that is negative evidence, as is the evidence of Straub's site. The HSNA diagram infers that WW2 US fleet subs were not equipped to transmit unless fully surfaced, but certainly doesn't prove it. You state pretty strongly that it was possible. Could you provide me with your sources for this?

Yes in that diagram you notice there is a loop antenna and a radio antenna. The loop was for DF and recieving VLF transmissions. The other antenna is for VHF radio ops. Now in the photo and expalaination in the link I just provided in the post before this one you see that the VHF antenna was moved forward to the Scope shear rather than in between. I am sure that early tower configs used the cable style antenna but when as the war progressed they moved to the "stick or mast style and mounted them on the shears. Thus back to my old assertion that yes, you can transmitte and recieve while at radar depth.

[Redmane]

If you do some research into VHF, and its application during the war, you will notice two things. It is capable only of line of sight reception and transmission, meaning that is a relatively short range method of communication. This limitation on VHF still exists today. Also the following procedural guidelines were in place regarding communications using VHF:


5305. Very-high-frequency (VHF) tactical radiotelephone circuits have proved their value in war. The following general rules are set forth for the guidance of responsible commanders in the use of such circuits in wartime:
a. They may be used for initial contact reports, emergency maneuvers, and the transmission of important information when visual means are prohibited or too slow.
b. Only a minimum of transmission should be permitted during darkness or reduced visibility.
c. Caution must be exercised in the use of plain language transmissions of vital importance which would be of value to the enemy if intercepted.
5306. Detailed instructions supplementing or modifying the foregoing general principles shall be issued by responsible commanders as appropriate and necessary, depending on the situation existing.

Note that under conditions of darkness or reduced visibility, when submarines or other vessels might be within range without being detected, use of VHF radio was discouraged.-RF

The above referenced procedural statment can be found here: http://www.virhistory.com/navy/flory/id11.html

[J0313]

Originally Posted by Redmane

If you do some research into VHF, and its application during the war, you will notice two things. It is capable only of line of sight reception and transmission, meaning that is a relatively short range method of communication. This limitation on VHF still exists today. Also the following procedural guidelines were in place regarding communications using VHF:


5305. Very-high-frequency (VHF) tactical radiotelephone circuits have proved their value in war. The following general rules are set forth for the guidance of responsible commanders in the use of such circuits in wartime:
a. They may be used for initial contact reports, emergency maneuvers, and the transmission of important information when visual means are prohibited or too slow.
b. Only a minimum of transmission should be permitted during darkness or reduced visibility.
c. Caution must be exercised in the use of plain language transmissions of vital importance which would be of value to the enemy if intercepted.
5306. Detailed instructions supplementing or modifying the foregoing general principles shall be issued by responsible commanders as appropriate and necessary, depending on the situation existing.

Note that under conditions of darkness or reduced visibility, when submarines or other vessels might be within range without being detected, use of VHF radio was discouraged.-RF

The above referenced procedural statment can be found here: http://www.virhistory.com/navy/flory/id11.html

Okay. I dont want to get off on a tangent here. The only point I am trying to make is that Fleet boats with the proper conning tower configuration could make transmisssion at parascope depth. Wether they did so commonly or thier procedures in doing so are not important to my point.

[J0313]

I guess this will never be solved. There arent any first person accounts that I can find. So I will continue looking but its probably going to be fuitless.

[Redmane]

Ultimately, you are not wrong in asserting that a US Fleet Type boat could both transmit and receive at radar depth. The only provisos are that they would have to have a VHF rig, and the communication would be limited to the capabilities of that gear. In other words, Fleet units close enough to receive the signal could do so, but by no means would it be possible for the boat to contact a ground station on this gear unless in range, not blocked by any interference, and the ground station would also need to have the appropriate gear. Additionally, I make this observation: I have been at radar depth on approach to a target in high sea states, had the periscope raised just enough to clear the housing, and had it be regularly washed by the wave action. So there also would be that factor of limitiation on the VHF.

[EDIT] Found this on Wiki regarding standard range of VHF transmissions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high_frequency

[J0313]

Originally Posted by Redmane

Ultimately, you are not wrong in asserting that a US Fleet Type boat could both transmit and receive at radar depth. The only provisos are that they would have to have a VHF rig, and the communication would be limited to the capabilities of that gear. In other words, Fleet units close enough to receive the signal could do so, but by no means would it be possible for the boat to contact a ground station on this gear unless in range, not blocked by any interference, and the ground station would also need to have the appropriate gear. Additionally, I make this observation: I have been at radar depth on approach to a target in high sea states, had the periscope raised just enough to clear the housing, and had it be regularly washed by the wave action. So there also would be that factor of limitiation on the VHF.

Check this out. http://books.google.com/books?id=7qz...ntenna&f=false.

Look at page 165 and 166. Bottom right of 165. Upper left of 166 and tell me what you read there.

[Redmane]

Originally Posted by J0313

Check this out. http://books.google.com/books?id=7qz...ntenna&f=false.

Look at page 165 and 166. Bottom right of 165. Upper left of 166 and tell me what you read there.

I read that the boat could transmit via radio at periscope depth, provided they could get the antenna clear of the water. What I don't read is that this arrangement was still in place on the Fleet type boats used during the war.

[BigWalleye]

From the Straub website (http://www.ka8vit.com/subops/subop1.htm):

"VHF TRANSCEIVERS:
Later on in WWII SCR522 and SCR624 VHF transceivers were added to the Radio Room. These were multi channel crystal controlled transceivers used primarily to communicate with aircraft, particularly during Life Guard operations."

Redmane, this seems consistent with your observation that VHF is (and was) only useful for LOS.

Originally Posted by J0313

I am sure that early tower configs used the cable style antenna but when as the war progressed they moved to the "stick or mast style and mounted them on the shears. Thus back to my old assertion that yes, you can transmitte and recieve while at radar depth.

J0313, I don't mean to denigrate your expertise, but an independent source would certainly confirm your statements. There seems to be considerable evidence against your position, and so far, no evidence that supports it. Do you have family members who remember such submerged transmisions from their WW2 days? A first-person account you have read? NavPers manuals?

BTW, the diagram at HNSA is of a Balao, IIRC. The Balao class was the standard US fleet boat at the end of the war, and didn't enter service until mid-43.