Community projects?

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

currently, logs generated by my spreadsheet contain two numbers which are related to torpedoes available onboard at any given date; they are: 'ships attacked so far' and 'torpedo loadout at the beginning of the patrol'. Based on the information you have provided, I think that we should increase the latter by a fixed amount (4 [?]) each time the given boat was refitted. Do you agree?

Agreed

Originally Posted by gap

Okay, it seems reasonable to me.
For maximum range I will use the information on surface range provided by uboat.net for each U-boat type, and I will increase it by 50% after each refit; 'distance travelled so far' will be calculated automatically based on input coordinates. We will need to redo the previously generated logs though.

Redoing the logs shouldn't be too difficult since we already have stored copies of most of the essential data. I assume we could copy and past the coordinates information, making minor adjustments for any refits (although there shouldn't have been any at that stage of the war).

Originally Posted by gap

As we are at it, I remember you once suggested to use commander's personal successes and awards, besides their rank, for calculating boat's veterancy level. If you provide further detail on your idea, I could try implementing it, but I suggest to use only the information which we can obtain directly from our sources, without complicating too much the whole data input process

I have been trying to formulate a simple but effective way to determine commander skill level (for the sake of simplicity, I think we should ignore crew ability). The ideal method would be to calculate veterancy level based on tonnage sunk by date, thereby simulating the commander "learning" the business of U-boat warfare by experience. However, this method seems completely impractical since it would require recalculating tonnage at the beginning of every patrol. I don't think we should impose these burdensome requirements on our volunteers. Calculating veterancy based on commander's awards is also not an ideal solution: the requirements to receive a Knight's Cross declined steadily as Allied ASW increased in lethality, so that they were occasionally being awarded after sinking just one or two merchants by 1944.

In view of these obstacles, I think the best solution would be to have a one-time calculation of veterancy based on the total tonnage sunk by the commander over the course of his career. We would not be able to simulate "learning," but I think this method would greatly reduce the difficulty of determining skill level. For example, any commander that sank 75,000 GRT or more could be considered a "veteran," even from the beginning of the war. This would be about 64 commanders, according to a quick check of uboat.net.

Before assigning specific numbers, though, it would be important to know to what extent veterancy affects AI ability. Has this been tested?

[gap]

Okay, I hope to release the next version of the generator within the next 24 hours.

Talking about veterancy levels, if I have got you, you are proposing not to take commander's ranks in any account. What if we assigned each rank a number of points, and then we averaged them with the tonnage sunk for determining U-oat's veterancy?

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

Okay, I hope to release the next version of the generator within the next 24 hours.

Originally Posted by gap

Talking about veterancy levels, if I have got you, you are proposing not to take commander's ranks in any account. What if we assigned each rank a number of points, and then we averaged them with the tonnage sunk for determining U-oat's veterancy?

I was thinking that rank might be more of a reflection of bureaucracy than skill, but you are probably right that it is a useful variable. Since it is already included in the generator, we might as well make use of it. Of the two variables, I think tonnage sunk should be given a little bit more weight than rank. What do you think?

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I was thinking that rank might be more of a reflection of bureaucracy than skill, but you are probably right that it is a useful variable. Since it is already included in the generator, we might as well make use of it. Of the two variables, I think tonnage sunk should be given a little bit more weight than rank. What do you think?

Agreed

Now we need to:

- assign each rank a number of points comparable to tonnage sunk
- ask our volunteers if they think it practical to calculate the partial sum of tonnage sunk by any commander until the current patrol (otherwise, only total tonnages at the end of their respective careers will be taken into account)
- determine tonnage sunk + commander rank ranges corresponding to each veterancy level.

Can you please take care of the above tasks?

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

Agreed

Now we need to:

- assign each rank a number of points comparable to tonnage sunk
- ask our volunteers if they think it practical to calculate the partial sum of tonnage sunk by any commander until the current patrol (otherwise, only total tonnages at the end of their respective careers will be taken into account)
- determine tonnage sunk + commander rank ranges corresponding to each veterancy level.

Can you please take care of the above tasks?

Sure thing.

Even though it would only require very simple arithmetic, I am hesitant to ask people to recalculate tonnage sunk before each patrol, since it would add another barrier that might drive away volunteers. But what do you guys—Targor, Sartoris, Dogfish, Volodya, and anybody else interested in helping—think about this? Is it too demanding to calculate add up tonnage before each patrol? How about only using the commander's career tonnage?

Also, does anyone know how the veterancy levels affect AI ability? For example, if the AI becomes basically worthless at novice level, then it might be better to exclude the novice setting. Similarly, if the veteran level turns AI u-boats into the equivalent of Virginia-class attack subs, then we would make it very rare.

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Also, does anyone know how the veterancy levels affect AI ability. For example, if the AI becomes basically worthless at novice level, then it might be better to exclude the novice setting. Similarly, if the veteran level turns AI u-boats into the equivalent of Virginia-class attack subs, then we would make it very rare.

Maybe we can device a set of single missions to test how veterancy levels affect AI U-boats

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

Maybe we can device a set of single missions to test how veterancy levels affect AI U-boats

Okay, I will run some tests. I won't be able to get to it until tomorrow since i have to prepare for a seminar tomorrow. I don't think it should take too long to get a since of the AI settings though.

[Sartoris]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Sure thing.

Even though it would only require very simple arithmetic, I am hesitant to ask people to recalculate tonnage sunk before each patrol, since it would add another barrier that might drive away volunteers. But what do you guys—Targor, Sartoris, Dogfish, Volodya, and anybody else interested in helping—think about this? Is it too demanding to calculate add up tonnage before each patrol? How about only using the commander's career tonnage?

Also, does anyone know how the veterancy levels affect AI ability? For example, if the AI becomes basically worthless at novice level, then it might be better to exclude the novice setting. Similarly, if the veteran level turns AI u-boats into the equivalent of Virginia-class attack subs, then we would make it very rare.

I don't think it would be too much of a bother.

[Targor Avelany]

I have nothing against a bit of math.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Sartoris

I don't think it would be too much of a bother.

Originally Posted by Targor Avelany

I have nothing against a bit of math.

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by Sartoris

I don't think it would be too much of a bother.

Originally Posted by Targor Avelany

I have nothing against a bit of math.

Thanks for your responses. I think we can plan on calculating tonnage before each patrol. This should provide the most realistic portrayal of veterancy levels

I'm just about to start testing AI U-boats to see how skill level affects their ability. After that, I'll post some preliminary suggestions for setting veterancy levels.

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Thanks for your responses. I think we can plan on calculating tonnage before each patrol. This should provide the most realistic portrayal of veterancy levels

yep

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I'm just about to start testing AI U-boats to see how skill level affects their ability. After that, I'll post some preliminary suggestions for setting veterancy levels.

[gap]

• Making lat/long input cells to accept coordinates divided by a comma (e.g. 53.31N, 08.12E) - done
• Adding two new current activity tags which you can select: "Heading to refitting area" and "Refitting aborted" - done
• Adding three new message flags which can be generated: "Proceeding to refitting area", "Successfully refitted" and "Refitting aborted" - done
• Adding information on fuel left / total patrol distance to the logs generated - currently working on it
• Updating fuel / torpedoes aboard, after each successful refitting.
• Making U-boat veterancy to be calculated on the base of tonnage sunk by her commander.
• Adding an alternative lat/long input for German bases (no coordinates input required).

Have I forgot anything important?

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

• Making lat/long input cells to accept coordinates divided by a comma (e.g. 53.31N, 08.12E) - done
• Adding two new current activity tags which you can select: "Heading to refitting area" and "Refitting aborted" - done
• Adding three new message flags which can be generated: "Proceeding to refitting area", "Successfully refitted" and "Refitting aborted" - done
• Adding information on fuel left / total patrol distance to the logs generated - currently working on it
• Updating fuel / torpedoes aboard, after each successful refitting.
• Making U-boat veterancy to be calculated on the base of tonnage sunk by her commander.
• Adding an alternative lat/long input for German bases (no coordinates input required).

Have I forgot anything important?

I think that's everything

I have done about 25 tests of the U-boat AI, and the results have been exciting—AI U-boats are quite capable, even if they are not very subtle. All of the tests have been at the "elite" setting so far, since I am trying to decide the fairest setup for more comprehensive tests. I think I have found the right setup and will begin testing other veterancy levels this afternoon.

[Targor Avelany]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I think that's everything

I have done about 25 tests of the U-boat AI, and the results have been exciting—AI U-boats are quite capable, even if they are not very subtle. All of the tests have been at the "elite" setting so far, since I am trying to decide the fairest setup for more comprehensive tests. I think I have found the right setup and will begin testing other veterancy levels this afternoon.

I also have nothing to really add, gap. I think it's good!

@keysersoze:
Keep me in the loop on the results. It's pretty obvious, I guess, why I'm interested