Are you willing?

Father Goose · 04-12-13, 10:42 PM

Don't worry Stealhead. The same thing happened to a lot of folks in the last presidential election.

Back on topic:
'Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.' Benjamin Franklin, 'Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor,' November 11, 1755."

Stealhead · 04-12-13, 10:51 PM

That is the same thing the losing side says after every election by my count that has happened 55 times just counting primary presidential elections.

I volunteered during the 2008 election trust me they get counted correctly and people get varied properly I sat there a did it.

Red October1984 · 04-12-13, 11:05 PM

NO!

None of my rights will be given up because they are RIGHTS!

Maybe we've forgotten the definition of that word....

Father Goose · 04-12-13, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

That is the same thing the losing side says after every election by my count that has happened 55 times just counting primary presidential elections.

I volunteered during the 2008 election trust me they get counted correctly and people get varied properly I sat there a did it.

Oh, I'm sorry, I just noticed you're from Florida. That explains it all.

Red October1984 · 04-12-13, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Father Goose

Oh, I'm sorry, I just noticed you're from Florida. That explains it all.

Stealhead, we're going to have to recount your posts...

CCIP · 04-12-13, 11:52 PM

I have little respect for people who stand on a soapbox and loudly proclaim "Liberty or death!", having never had to make that choice and never facing anything remotely approximating that choice. You are no more qualified to judge people making that choice than a crayon-drawing 4-year-old. It's easy to look down on people who've made that choice - of course, they're cowards who deserve nothing! Let them be dead in the pyre of history, those traitors to great human ideals! It's a black-and-white world after all.

I was born in the USSR. I think that tells you something about where my view comes from. Live in a place where your safety is actually legitimately threatened, or worse, when the real choice is the safety of your family, and then come back and be 100% confident in your answer. But I seriously don't buy this stuff for even a second. It's a historical fact that when they come after you and your loved ones, no forum poll will change the fact that the overwhelming majority will make the choice to save what's dear to them. And no amount of self-righteousness and ego-pumping will make you right and them wrong. You have no right to look down on people who love life and love their family, and would give up anything and everything to preserve them.

History is a complicated thing and people should strive for ideals, but not through black/white proclamations that divide people into humans and less-than-humans.

magic452 · 04-13-13, 02:00 AM

With all do respect, and I do mean that, nobody said anything about looking down on anybody. A simple poll nothing more and isn't that what Freedom, Liberty and Democratic are all about.

Americans have been standing up for Liberty for over 200 hundred years and many thousands have died because of it. We have paid our blood and treasure many times already and will do so again if necessary.

Don't forget that it was an American that said " Give me Liberty or give me death" and he wasn't standing on a soapbox but rather a gallows at the time.

People start giving up their "Liberty" and it's possible we may be put into the position you described and experienced.

What got your people into that position in the first place was a government that got too powerful. There are many Americans that will not let that happen here. Don't underestimate us.

I lived the entire Cold War, albeit from the other side of the coin but I nor anybody that I knew ever looked down on the people of Russia. Some times you got to do what you got to do to survive. What we don't want to see here is us being put into that position in the first place and one way that can happen is to start giving up your rights a little at a time.

Look at the Second Amendment gun thread and also put it together with the one on the IRS looking at your E Mails without warrants, the Fourth Amendment. A little bit at a time.

If the experience of the Russian people says one thing to the people of the US it is don't let that happen here. A little bit at a time.

I'll come down from my soapbox now.

Magic

Hottentot · 04-13-13, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic452

Americans have been standing up for Liberty for over 200 hundred years and many thousands have died because of it. We have paid our blood and treasure many times already and will do so again if necessary.

That's all well and good, but mostly theory as long as you (generic, not you personally) don't have to make the choice between liberty and death yourself. And that's what I think CCIP was pointing out. Your ancestors doing something does not give any validity to you in such case. Much like my ancestors fighting in Winter war don't give me any credit to use patriotic rhetoric about what I would or wouldn't do if another war with Russia broke out.

I have no doubt that should the situation arise, many people would still do as they said they would when it was only theoretical. But CCIP's point is still very valid: it's easier to say than do when you have something as dear as your family or your own life at stake.

Stealhead · 04-13-13, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Father Goose

Oh, I'm sorry, I just noticed you're from Florida. That explains it all.

It explains where I live and nothing more.And back in 2000 it was only a few counties that had those hole punch ballot deals.In most counties they use a ballot where you mark using a scan tron machine.This happens the moment they are done marking so there is no way to alter the vote unless the person made a mistake themselves.At the end of the day the machines are opened and the ballots are counted.I was not in the country for the 2000 vote at the time I was in the military and I only volunteered the one time in 2008 and have not done it since it was a little too boring for me to have sit in one place for hours on end.

Ducimus · 04-13-13, 03:57 PM

I think everyone here knows what my answer would be.

In a word. Never.

But I will elaborate in my own words, and not just toss out quotes from my nations founding fathers.

I have seen and experienced enough of this world to know that not everything is worth fighting for, and lofty words like "freedom" and "liberty" can seem like hallow, empty words. But there is a single word, that I would fight and die for with all my heart and soul.

Home.

The word home is many things. It's your house, your car, all your stuff. It's where you lay you head down at night, its your sanctuary, it's where your kids are, where your wife is, it is your friends, it your family, it's your neighbors. It is every thing you know and love. But it's that and more. It's about having choices, it's about being able to come and go as you please, it's about being the decider of your own actions, it's about making your own choices, its being able to plot the course of your own future, it's about the pursuit of happiness.

Now, everyone in the world comes from somewhere, everyone has their roots. One cannot take flight forever, you eventually have to land somewhere. Somewhere, you'll eventually have to make a stand. Home isn't always perfect, but it's still home, and home is worth fighting for more then anything else in the world.

So no, i would never surrender my constitutional rights in order to feel safer. The safety of myself, my loved ones, my home, is my responsibility. I love it too much to entrust that to someone else.

Jimbuna · 04-13-13, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I think everyone here knows what my answer would be.

In a word. Never.

But I will elaborate in my own words, and not just toss out quotes from my nations founding fathers.

I have seen and experienced enough of this world to know that not everything is worth fighting for, and lofty words like "freedom" and "liberty" can seem like hallow, empty words. But there is a single word, that I would fight and die for with all my heart and soul.

Home.

The word home is many things. It's your house, your car, all your stuff. It's where you lay you head down at night, its your sanctuary, it's where your kids are, where your wife is, it is your friends, it your family, it's your neighbors. It is every thing you know and love. But it's that and more. It's about having choices, it's about being able to come and go as you please, it's about being the decider of your own actions, it's about making your own choices, its being able to plot the course of your own future, it's about the pursuit of happiness.

Now, everyone in the world comes from somewhere, everyone has their roots. One cannot take flight forever, you eventually have to land somewhere. Somewhere, you'll eventually have to make a stand. Home isn't always perfect, but it's still home, and home is worth fighting for more then anything else in the world.

So no, i would never surrender my constitutional rights in order to feel safer. The safety of myself, my loved ones, my home, is my responsibility. I love it too much to entrust that to someone else.

Not an American but this sounds/looks about right for me.

swamprat69er · 04-13-13, 11:22 PM

You all know that I am just a big dumb Canuck, but I have to agree with Ducimus.

I voted no before I read the first post.

View Poll Results: Are you willing to give up some of your constitutional rights to feel safer?
Yes	4	12.50%
No	28	87.50%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

04-12-13, 11:05 PM	#3
Red October1984 Airplane Nerd Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 6,243 Downloads: 115 Uploads: 0	NO! None of my rights will be given up because they are RIGHTS! Maybe we've forgotten the definition of that word.... __________________

04-12-13, 11:52 PM	#6
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I have little respect for people who stand on a soapbox and loudly proclaim "Liberty or death!", having never had to make that choice and never facing anything remotely approximating that choice. You are no more qualified to judge people making that choice than a crayon-drawing 4-year-old. It's easy to look down on people who've made that choice - of course, they're cowards who deserve nothing! Let them be dead in the pyre of history, those traitors to great human ideals! It's a black-and-white world after all. I was born in the USSR. I think that tells you something about where my view comes from. Live in a place where your safety is actually legitimately threatened, or worse, when the real choice is the safety of your family, and then come back and be 100% confident in your answer. But I seriously don't buy this stuff for even a second. It's a historical fact that when they come after you and your loved ones, no forum poll will change the fact that the overwhelming majority will make the choice to save what's dear to them. And no amount of self-righteousness and ego-pumping will make you right and them wrong. You have no right to look down on people who love life and love their family, and would give up anything and everything to preserve them. History is a complicated thing and people should strive for ideals, but not through black/white proclamations that divide people into humans and less-than-humans. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-13-13, 02:00 AM	#7
magic452 Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Reno Nevada USA Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	With all do respect, and I do mean that, nobody said anything about looking down on anybody. A simple poll nothing more and isn't that what Freedom, Liberty and Democratic are all about. Americans have been standing up for Liberty for over 200 hundred years and many thousands have died because of it. We have paid our blood and treasure many times already and will do so again if necessary. Don't forget that it was an American that said " Give me Liberty or give me death" and he wasn't standing on a soapbox but rather a gallows at the time. People start giving up their "Liberty" and it's possible we may be put into the position you described and experienced. What got your people into that position in the first place was a government that got too powerful. There are many Americans that will not let that happen here. Don't underestimate us. I lived the entire Cold War, albeit from the other side of the coin but I nor anybody that I knew ever looked down on the people of Russia. Some times you got to do what you got to do to survive. What we don't want to see here is us being put into that position in the first place and one way that can happen is to start giving up your rights a little at a time. Look at the Second Amendment gun thread and also put it together with the one on the IRS looking at your E Mails without warrants, the Fourth Amendment. A little bit at a time. If the experience of the Russian people says one thing to the people of the US it is don't let that happen here. A little bit at a time. I'll come down from my soapbox now. Magic __________________ Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l

04-13-13, 11:22 PM	#12
swamprat69er Aceydeucy Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ontario,Canada Posts: 1,889 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	You all know that I am just a big dumb Canuck, but I have to agree with Ducimus. I voted no before I read the first post. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That which does not kill us, makes us stronger. We the willing, led by the unsure, have done so much with so little, for so long, that we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

04-12-13, 10:42 PM	#1
Father Goose Sonar Guy Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Matalava Island Posts: 378 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	Don't worry Stealhead. The same thing happened to a lot of folks in the last presidential election. Back on topic: 'Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.' Benjamin Franklin, 'Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor,' November 11, 1755."

04-12-13, 10:51 PM	#2
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	That is the same thing the losing side says after every election by my count that has happened 55 times just counting primary presidential elections. I volunteered during the 2008 election trust me they get counted correctly and people get varied properly I sat there a did it.

04-13-13, 03:57 PM	#10
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I think everyone here knows what my answer would be. In a word. Never. But I will elaborate in my own words, and not just toss out quotes from my nations founding fathers. I have seen and experienced enough of this world to know that not everything is worth fighting for, and lofty words like "freedom" and "liberty" can seem like hallow, empty words. But there is a single word, that I would fight and die for with all my heart and soul. Home. The word home is many things. It's your house, your car, all your stuff. It's where you lay you head down at night, its your sanctuary, it's where your kids are, where your wife is, it is your friends, it your family, it's your neighbors. It is every thing you know and love. But it's that and more. It's about having choices, it's about being able to come and go as you please, it's about being the decider of your own actions, it's about making your own choices, its being able to plot the course of your own future, it's about the pursuit of happiness. Now, everyone in the world comes from somewhere, everyone has their roots. One cannot take flight forever, you eventually have to land somewhere. Somewhere, you'll eventually have to make a stand. Home isn't always perfect, but it's still home, and home is worth fighting for more then anything else in the world. So no, i would never surrender my constitutional rights in order to feel safer. The safety of myself, my loved ones, my home, is my responsibility. I love it too much to entrust that to someone else.