[WIP] Historical Guns Specs

[THE_MASK]

What about getting rid of tracers altogether like i did with my latest gun mod . Reasons for this were . Increase the suspense by a massive amount during game play by the player not knowing which ship is firing at you unless you can see the muzzle flash . The player is more likely to not attack a convoy surfaced unless early in the war , which is more realistic i think . Its harder to use the deck gun yourself which is more realistic , thats the crews job . No gun tracers combined with the smoke screen mod bring the suspense to a whole new level (no external cameras) .

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

You are probably right that their data can be applied much more specifically to u-boats than information found in most of our other sources. I wish there were sources listed for their figures.

So do I.

In general, information reported by uboatarchive is directly derived from first hand sources; they even publish their sources, when possible.

The best first hand documents I was able to access from their website so far, are the Cumulative Edition - CB 04051(103) of British Interrogation Reports and, even better, the U-boat Information for U-boat Type VII C, directly issued by Kriegsmarine. They are respectively dated June '44 and July '40, which is also good, because they account for both early and late war specifications, thus complementing each other.

Unfortunately, the German U-boat manual doesn't make reference to any rate of fire, but it provides precious information on early ammo outfits (p. 56):

Ammunition.
Total amount of ammunition that can be carried:
8.8 cm munitions: 205 rounds HE shell C/35
MG C/30 munitions: 1500 rounds
Of these in munitions magazine in officers room between Frames 50 ½ – 53:
177 rounds 8,8 cm HE shell C/35
1200 rounds MG C/30

Ready-use ammunition for the S.K. C/35 is stored in pressure-proof canisters [one shell to a canister placed in a rack] in the upper deck just aft of and outside the operating circle to both sides of the conning tower:

28 rounds 8.8 cm HE shell C/35
3 ammo clips with 20 rounds each are stored in the conning tower.
The munitions magazine in officers room is connected to the flooding and drainage installation.

As for the British document, it is more explicit. On 42M, it states a rate of fire of 40-50 rpm in a table at p. 16, and it further details the above figure in another table at p. 18, by stating: "40 approx. (semiautomatic) 60 (fully automatic)". This is in partial accordance with the practical RoF of 40 rpm, stated elsewhere in the same website.

Moreover, in the table at p. 18, under the 'Ready use rounds carried' column, it is said "21 containers on deck each holding 25 clips of 5" and, in a note the first table:

(a) This 37 mm. is fully automatic; the 37 mm. which was fitted to some U-Boats earlier in the war was breech loading and had a much slower rate of fire. The new 37 mm. has since late 1943 been replacing the quadruple 20 mm. as a standard fitting (fact) but there are indications that it may itself now be removed because of frequent jamming under marine conditions. (B2)
(b) Ammunition is in clips of five.

This should dispel any doubt about the size of M42's magazines

Summing up, in our settings I would reduce M42's practical RoF to 60 rpm (maximum) by altering reload times, and I would keep the 5-round clip size. As for the SK C/30, I am tempted to use the same RoF as the 88mm deck gun: 18-20 rpm.

Lastly, please note that nowhere it is said that the new 40-round magazines entered service in Ubootwaffe. 20 rounds is the figure stated by most sources relative to U-boat armaments; I start wondering if we shoudn't revise our settings accordigly though it would suck indeed

Originally Posted by keysersoze

While not a perfect solution, I think this is quite acceptable. AA armament changed very little for the first three years of the war, but then evolved rapidly in 1943, just when many of the new shells were also entering operational service.

Unfortunately, this is the only option left, unless TDW can devise a patch for making the game to use ammo shells availability settings.

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Wow, thanks for that video. I am tempted to say it was "cool," but that's not quite the right word for it. "Intense" is maybe better.

Yes, "intense" is probably a more appropriated definition.

Sad as they are, let's share this sort of visual documents, whenever we can. Talking about it, this is another video I had previously shared in another thread:



Despite the silly background music, quite making it to resemble an ILS-2 video capture (I usually don't disdain trance music, but in other contexts), it is actual wwii footage showing some P-47 Thunderbolt as they are shooting their tracer ammo on enemy targets

Originally Posted by keysersoze

There must be lots of great U-boat footage hidden away in archives around the world. It would be really interesting to know which boats were depicted in those film clips and whether they were shot spontaneously or for propaganda purposes.

I bend toward the propaganda. Right then, film recording cameras had to be a rare item, and I doubt that a "free lance" documentarist could have got so close to Nazi weaponry

Originally Posted by sober

What about getting rid of tracers altogether like i did with my latest gun mod . Reasons for this were . Increase the suspense by a massive amount during game play by the player not knowing which ship is firing at you unless you can see the muzzle flash . The player is more likely to not attack a convoy surfaced unless early in the war , which is more realistic i think . Its harder to use the deck gun yourself which is more realistic , thats the crews job . No gun tracers combined with the smoke screen mod bring the suspense to a whole new level (no external cameras) .

I see your point sober.

This mod will feature tracer ammunition in limited stocks. Where possible, the tracer/no tracer proportion will reflect historical usage.
Currently I am more concerned about giving tracers a lesser gamey look, but I don't exclude the development of an optional patch removing tracers at all, as per your suggestion

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

So do I.
In general, information reported by uboatarchive is directly derived from first hand sources; they even publish their sources, when possible.

The best first hand documents I was able to access from their website so far, are the Cumulative Edition - CB 04051(103) of British Interrogation Reports and, even better, the U-boat Information for U-boat Type VII C, directly issued by Kriegsmarine. They are respectively dated June '44 and July '40, which is also good, because they account for both early and late war specifications, thus complementing each other.

These are great documents. I've read much of the "U-boat Information for U-boat Type VII" document before, but had never seen the British interrogation reports.

Originally Posted by gap

This should dispel any doubt about the size of M42's magazines

Originally Posted by gap

Summing up, in our settings I would reduce M42's practical RoF to 60 rpm (maximum) by altering reload times, and I would keep the 5-round clip size. As for the SK C/30, I am tempted to use the same RoF as the 88mm deck gun: 18-20 rpm.

I think these are sensible alterations. I am also beginning to wonder about the SK C/30's rate of fire. From a subjective perspective, I think it would be hard to manually reload such a weapon fast enough to achieve anywhere near 40 rpm.

Originally Posted by gap

Lastly, please note that nowhere it is said that the new 40-round magazines entered service in Ubootwaffe. 20 rounds is the figure stated by most sources relative to U-boat armaments; I start wondering if we shoudn't revise our settings accordigly though it would suck indeed

Yes, this is also troubling. In fact, many of our sources, such as Skwiot and Mehl, mention the 20 round magazine at least as often as they mention the 40 round magazine. It seems clear to me that both magazines were used at some point in the war, but it is difficult to pinpoint exactly when transitions occurred or the frequency with which different size magazines were employed. It might be that the 20 round magazine stuck around longer than we originally thought

Originally Posted by gap

Unfortunately, this is the only option left, unless TDW can devise a patch for making the game to use ammo shells availability settings.

I have faith...TDW can do anything

Originally Posted by gap

Despite the silly background music, quite making it to resemble an ILS-2 video capture (I usually don't disdain trance music, but in other contexts), it is actual wwii footage showing some P-47 Thunderbolt as they are shooting their tracer ammo on enemy targets

Very interesting video, and another good example of historical tracer appearance.

Originally Posted by gap

I bend toward the propaganda. Right then, film recording cameras had to be a rare item, and I doubt that a "free lance" documentarist could have got so close to Nazi weaponry

That is probably true, although there were many reporters aboard U-boats, such as Lothar-Günther Buchheim in U-96. I don't think he took any videos, but there are hundreds of excellent pictures from the famous "Das Boot patrol." Of course, these guys were not really journalists—they were basically on board the U-boat for propaganda purposes, but that did not stop Buchheim from expressing some strong anti-war views. But at least the pictures or videos they took are footage of the "real" war, not contrived images from training boats in the Baltic made to look like they are on patrol.

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

These are great documents. I've read much of the "U-boat Information for U-boat Type VII" document before, but had never seen the British interrogation reports.

yep, precious sources that will come in handy for the next phase of our project

Talking about the British interrogations, besides the cumulative edition you can also access the individual reports from link below:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/BritishI...ionReports.htm

They are great when it comes to appraise the usage of any specific equipment at various stages of the war, and how useful it was considered by U-boat crews

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I think these are sensible alterations. I am also beginning to wonder about the SK C/30's rate of fire. From a subjective perspective, I think it would be hard to manually reload such a weapon fast enough to achieve anywhere near 40 rpm.

Exactly! This is especially true if you think what an unstable and cramped gun platform U-boats had to be. In view of your approval I will implement the suggested modfications right away

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Yes, this is also troubling. In fact, many of our sources, such as Skwiot and Mehl, mention the 20 round magazine at least as often as they mention the 40 round magazine. It seems clear to me that both magazines were used at some point in the war, but it is difficult to pinpoint exactly when transitions occurred or the frequency with which different size magazines were employed. It might be that the 20 round magazine stuck around longer than we originally thought

For sure, by June '44 they had to be so rare (if used at all), that British reports don't mention them at all; I am way more convinced that we should downsize C/38 magazines, at least for single and twin mounts. What do you think?

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I have faith...TDW can do anything

Yes I trust in him too. But we must also consider that he is involved in many other SH5 projects, and that he had not much time for modding lately. Let's hope that he will read this post, at least

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Very interesting video, and another good example of historical tracer appearance.

by the way, I am still working on flares appearance. Many cool effects can be achieved by messing with SH particle generators, though discerning the effect of each of the many parameters of their controllers can be an hassle and on a side note, I have given the 20mm flak C/30 a new sound hoe you will like it

Originally Posted by keysersoze

That is probably true, although there were many reporters aboard U-boats, such as Lothar-Günther Buchheim in U-96. I don't think he took any videos, but there are hundreds of excellent pictures from the famous "Das Boot patrol." Of course, these guys were not really journalists—they were basically on board the U-boat for propaganda purposes, but that did not stop Buchheim from expressing some strong anti-war views. But at least the pictures or videos they took are footage of the "real" war, not contrived images from training boats in the Baltic made to look like they are on patrol.

Ah okay, I see what you mean now. Answering your question might be possible, but we should first indentify the nationality of the ships getting shelled/torpedoed

[gap]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Game already has this. You just need to assign a different gun to the date in the unit's .cfg file. That gun would have the shells wanted/needed. Obviously you would have to clone the gun in the GR2 file for this to work. The GR2 Editor/Viewer is not at that point yet.

mmm... this is a workaround, but the need to "buy" another gun upgrade would "unveil" the trick. In my opinion, being automatically given different ordnance after a certain date would be much more immersing ...

Originally Posted by Targor Avelany

hmm... It partially is. Especially if animation/object itself will not change, that can be done, I think. I mean, that is what I'm doing with the IXb right now - that unit is purely cloned from 7B gr2

yes, provided that the existing animations are not messed up by the editor, this is already possible. An example? The 105mm deck gun featured by EUF is a clone of the 88mm gun

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by gap

mmm... this is a workaround, but the need to "buy" another gun upgrade would "unveil" the trick. In my opinion, being automatically given different ordnance after a certain date would be much more immersing ...

How would you not get the gun? If it's specified in the unit's .eqp file to be used at so-and-so date the game would use it. No intervention by player would be needed

[gap]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

How would you not get the gun? If it's specified in the unit's .eqp file to be used at so-and-so date the game would use it. No intervention by player would be needed

do you mean that armaments listed in the eqp file don't require to be selected as upgrades? IIRC I once tried to modify boat's equipment using that method, but the guns specified in the eqp file didn't show up in single mission...

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by gap

Unfortunately, this is the only option left, unless TDW can devise a patch for making the game to use ammo shells availability settings.

Game already has this. You just need to assign a different gun to the date in the unit's .cfg file. That gun would have the shells wanted/needed. Obviously you would have to clone the gun in the GR2 file for this to work. The GR2 Editor/Viewer is not at that point yet.

[Targor Avelany]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Game already has this. You just need to assign a different gun to the date in the unit's .cfg file. That gun would have the shells wanted/needed. Obviously you would have to clone the gun in the GR2 file for this to work. The GR2 Editor/Viewer is not at that point yet.

hmm... It partially is. Especially if animation/object itself will not change, that can be done, I think. I mean, that is what I'm doing with the IXb right now - that unit is purely cloned from 7B gr2

[gap]

Originally Posted by sober

Increase the suspense by a massive amount during game play by the player not knowing which ship is firing at you unless you can see the muzzle flash

I forgot to mention that by tweaking the TimeToStart property of the TrailParticleGenerator, we can probably simulate delayed tracers thus making attacker's position lesser obvious. However, it is to note that according to Wikipedia, delay element are more typical of "most modern tracers".