[REL] Open Horizons II

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by Trevally.

Yes - this format is good and is easy for me to follow

Okay, I'll keep working on adding the other special missions.

Originally Posted by Trevally.

This is something I would love to add and have tried many times.
There are some issues that I have not been able to solve - the ctds
When even one aeroplane enter a harbour area and starts shooting - port traffic will return fire. risk of ctd=50%
More the one plane attacking adds to the ctd risk.

That's too bad. Maybe someday there will be a way to implement it without frying a computer.

Originally Posted by Trevally.

When adding resupply ships/u-boats to the campaign - I can do it in two main ways.

The first is by zone - this is where you request resupply by radio and is the most common and flexible way to do it.
It can only be done by campaign layer with no date control - So I can say what ship to use, its name etc - but not when to stop - it will be there for the whole campaign section.

The secomd way is to script them into a mission where it will be triggered. This gives full control but needs to fit with a mission

Hmmm. I admit I don't know very much about the campaign structure in SH5 and didn't realize the comparative advantages and disadvantages of scripted missions vs. campaigns. SH5 seems to offer a lot of flexibility with special missions, but the campaign section format introduces new problems of its own. It's always been a bit of an immersion-breaker to have to choose a campaign, instead of being ordered to a grid like in SH3. I can't think of any U-boat operations, other than perhaps the collaboration between Dönitz and Prien before the Scapa raid, in which a U-boat commander got to choose his area of operation. I don't mean this as a criticism of OHII—quite the contrary, OHII is one of the most important mods for SH5. But I'm still trying to wrap my head around the campaign format.

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

Excellent
I would only add information on the area patrolled before or after accomplishing the special mission, if any: i.e. British coastal waters, western approaches north of Ireland, Caribbean, West Africa, etc. This way, Trevally would get a rough idea of which one of the yet scripted OHII objectives can realistically feature the suggested mission.

Okay, I'll try to add this information whenever I can find it. For a lot of the operations, the U-boat sailed directly to its destination, dropped off a weather team (or laid mines, etc.), and then took up a regular patrol. I'll try to make it more explicit, though.

Originally Posted by gap

On a side note, I see you provided information on mine laying missions. Unfortunately mines were not yet modded in SH5, and I don't see how minelaying could be made in a "mission accomplished" triggering condition. But who knows, maybe one day...

I know mines are not included in SH5... maybe this was just wishful thinking One thing that was striking when I read Clay Blair's Hitler's U-boat War was how often U-boats performed minelaying operations. I don't have the hard statistics nearby, but IIRC approximately 50% of U-boat patrols for 1939 were minelaying missions, not search-and-destroy grid patrols. Minelaying was so common, that we should probably refer to it as a normal patrol mission, rather than as a "special operation."

I'm sure implementing minelaying would be tricky. One objection that I've seen is that it would be impossible to credit tonnage sunk by mines to the U-boat that laid them, once that boat sailed away. Actually, I think the lack of credit would be perfectly historical: U-boat crews hated laying mines firstly because it was dangerous to get so close to enemy harbors, but also because they rarely got credit for a sinking unless B-Dienst could confirm it through wireless intercepts.

I've often wondered whether a script could check to see whether mines were placed at the correct depth. If they were, then there could be a random (but low) chance that we would be credited for sinking a random ship after returning to port. This would also remove the necessity of making the mines actually explode, since everything would be done through probabilities behind the scenes. It's not like a U-boat on a minelaying mission would stick around a harbor to watch the results anyway.

Sorry for my ramblings...I like to dream of these things, even if they're not possible right now

Originally Posted by gap

P.S: have you seen any account of resuppying units trying to ram into the resupplied U-boat? Was this the ormal protocol? If yes, there are chances tha it can be simulated in game

I think the devs put British agents onboard the resupply ships...British intelligence was really good, but not that good

Originally Posted by gap

I think that Illyustrator's MQK grid will make a nice addition to Open Horizon's campaign

this would be great. the MQK grid mod has tons of potential to increase immersion.

Originally Posted by gap

In my opinion, being proposed a singular "special missions" should be a rare evenience. But since there would be many missions of each type, during our career we would still have some chances to cope with the requirements of at least few of them. Widening their availability dates, but not too much, would ensure that each time we play again a campaign, there are chances that we will be assigned different duties from the last time we played it...

One other thing to keep in mind is that the frequency with which "special missions" were assigned depended greatly on the area of operation. Because the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe relied heavily on Arctic weather information to plan operations, it appears that the boats operating out of Norway constantly received orders to transport weather teams and set up weather stations. So for these boats, weather missions should be relatively common. Obviously, it would be less practical to have boats based out of France sail to Spitzbergen for the same mission.

Originally Posted by Fifi

I'm currently using both with OHII Full and TDW NewUIs 7.1.0...without issue

I have no idea why it doesn't work for me . I'll have to figure it out someday, because I like the exhaust, and the sub AI would be a nice feature to replace the ghost-ship uboats.

Originally Posted by GT182

7Infanterie19, I was told that lifeboats are in OHII Full, but as I've said before, I've never had them spawn.

I tested it out by deactivating the lifeboat mod. Result = no lifeboats. So, if it's a part of OHII (which I didn't know), then something is not working, but at least it works with the standalone mod.

Originally Posted by GT182

Now if we could update OHII from one verision to a new one without restarting our campaigns, that would be fantastic. I know the order of installing mods and then changing them around will neccessitate a restart, I wonder if there's a way around that. That would be on if the greatest fixes of SH5 for everyone.

+1 Wouldn't that be sweet! I'd finally be able to get to 1942 .. hehehe

Originally Posted by Trevally.

Thanks 7Infanterie19, Glad you got it working.
It is a nice addon mod for OHII - more people should try it

DOWNLOAD

Thanks! I'm glad too . It certainly is a nice addition, and I agree that more people should try it. Maybe it's because a lot of people just don't know about it. At the moment, I think it's only buried in these threads, so if someone doesn't see it, they miss it. I stumbled on your post about it deep in "Harbour Addition_Environment Enhancement Mod v0.5" just by chance. Perhaps you should put it up on its own [REL] thread and also link to it in the first page of the OHII thread, so that people can see it. That would give it the exposure it deserves.

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by 7Infanterie19

I tested it out by deactivating the lifeboat mod. Result = no lifeboats. So, if it's a part of OHII (which I didn't know), then something is not working, but at least it works with the standalone mod.

Gary was wrong.. this is not the part of OHII.. this is standalone mod..

Hi Trevally
You can add in the future ships of the modes mehr Traffic, Nationen und Schiffe 1.8 in OH II?
That would be great!

P.S. Unfortunately comrade Uekel not attend forum subsidies and mega-mod Schleichfahrt! has no further development!

[gap]

I am sorry for the delayed answers

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Okay, I'll try to add this information whenever I can find it. For a lot of the operations, the U-boat sailed directly to its destination, dropped off a weather team (or laid mines, etc.), and then took up a regular patrol. I'll try to make it more explicit, though.

yes, in my opinion what is left to report is resuming in 3-4 words what this regular patrol consisted in...

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I know mines are not included in SH5... maybe this was just wishful thinking One thing that was striking when I read Clay Blair's Hitler's U-boat War was how often U-boats performed minelaying operations. I don't have the hard statistics nearby, but IIRC approximately 50% of U-boat patrols for 1939 were minelaying missions, not search-and-destroy grid patrols. Minelaying was so common, that we should probably refer to it as a normal patrol mission, rather than as a "special operation."

Yes, I noticed it too: especially during the first months of the conflict practically every U-boat carried out minelaying duties

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I'm sure implementing minelaying would be tricky. One objection that I've seen is that it would be impossible to credit tonnage sunk by mines to the U-boat that laid them, once that boat sailed away. Actually, I think the lack of credit would be perfectly historical: U-boat crews hated laying mines firstly because it was dangerous to get so close to enemy harbors, but also because they rarely got credit for a sinking unless B-Dienst could confirm it through wireless intercepts.

I've often wondered whether a script could check to see whether mines were placed at the correct depth. If they were, then there could be a random (but low) chance that we would be credited for sinking a random ship after returning to port. This would also remove the necessity of making the mines actually explode, since everything would be done through probabilities behind the scenes. It's not like a U-boat on a minelaying mission would stick around a harbor to watch the results anyway.

I like too the idea, and I am optimistic on the possibility to model mines which can be loaded in U-boat tubes, as if they were normal torpedoes. One problem could be making each tube to accept two to three mines, as it was in reality, but as I see it, the main issue would be making the game to recognize us for laying them (no matter if they explode or not).

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Sorry for my ramblings...I like to dream of these things, even if they're not possible right now

daydreaming is okay, as long as our guest, Trevally, won't ban us from his thread

Originally Posted by keysersoze

One other thing to keep in mind is that the frequency with which "special missions" were assigned depended greatly on the area of operation. Because the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe relied heavily on Arctic weather information to plan operations, it appears that the boats operating out of Norway constantly received orders to transport weather teams and set up weather stations. So for these boats, weather missions should be relatively common. Obviously, it would be less practical to have boats based out of France sail to Spitzbergen for the same mission.

I was struck too by the frequency of "weather missions" in the Arctic when I was collecting information on U-boat escort duties. This is especially true toward mid-late war, when U-bootwaffe turned again toward Arctic routes due to the increasing Allied control of mid Atlantic waters.
Unfortunately, many of these missions fall outside the timeframe of OH's Arctic Convoys (see my previous post on this topic, and my suggestion to add a new Arctic Campaign).

EDIT: in this post and in the following ones, Trevally posted a few charts showing the locations of OH's campaign/objectives. Useful for reasoning on which missions are compatible with which objectives, since I agree with you that assigning an U-boat based in France to a mission which will take place in the Arctic, won't make much sense

[gap]

Originally Posted by Captain73

Hi Trevally
You can add in the future ships of the modes mehr Traffic, Nationen und Schiffe 1.8 in OH II?
That would be great!

P.S. Unfortunately comrade Uekel not attend forum subsidies and mega-mod Schleichfahrt! has no further development!

second that

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

second that

I think this is impossible, at least right now.. because of .dat models.. I think so..
I could never get these mods (MTNS and New UIs) working together.. it's too 'hard' to our game.. these heavy mods.. or MTNS + OHII + other UI mod, or New UIs + OHII.. only this way.. unfortunately..

Maybe someday.. after the GR2 Editor's release..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

I think this is impossible, at least right now.. because of .dat models.. I think so..
I could never get these mods (MTNS and New UIs) working together.. it's too 'hard' to our game.. these heavy mods.. or MTNS + OHII + other UI mod, or New UIs + OHII.. only this way.. unfortunately..

Maybe someday.. after the GR2 Editor's release..

The point is: are that dat models so heavy, or some other MTNS setting?

[Targor Avelany]

honestly, you can easily import/clone models right now. It is a bit of a pain, as you have to make sure to fix all the bone/mesh names in the gr2 file and re-attach all the controllers as they will be broken, but the actual import is easy.

My main pain with working on the 9b uboat (AI one) consists of the uboat having sooo many different layers (probably partially because you can only assign 2 materials maximum per mesh, so you can't break things into subsets so much). But if you have ready-to-go models, importing them into gr2 is pretty easy... (well, and i'm squimish on importing a SHIII 3d model... It just doesn't look as nice).

If you want, i'll pick couple of ship's gr2's and will start making a clone out of them according to a list of ships that we have .dat files used for at the moment.

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

The point is: are that dat models so heavy, or some other MTNS setting?

here I have no answer..

Originally Posted by volodya61

Gary was wrong.. this is not the part of OHII.. this is standalone mod..

Thanks for the confirmation volodya61!

I remember reading once that you had to start a new campaign or get back to port and then out to sea again before the boats show up. I can confirm that after reactivating the mod at sea, there still weren't any boats, but once I returned to port and went out to sea, they're back. IIRC, I may have already made a post confirming this in Rongel's thread a long time ago.

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

Unfortunately, many of these missions fall outside the timeframe of OH's Arctic Convoys (see my previous post on this topic, and my suggestion to add a new Arctic Campaign).

EDIT: in this post and in the following ones, Trevally posted a few charts showing the locations of OH's campaign/objectives. Useful for reasoning on which missions are compatible with which objectives, since I agree with you that assigning an U-boat based in France to a mission which will take place in the Arctic, won't make much sense

I see. Here is a radical and maybe unrealistic idea, so ignore it if it doesn't contribute anything : What if each campaign "section" was modified to represent a single U-boat flotilla? This way, you would avoid the problem of missions falling outside a campaign's timeframe, you could simulate "transferring" to other flotillas by choosing a new campaign, and you would add to the immersion of being assigned to a single flotilla for the duration of the war. For example, the 13th U-bootsflottille could become available in June 1943, operate out of Norway until the end of the war, and all missions carried out for by that flotilla could be assigned to that flotilla's "campaign." This might also make campaigns and missions more flexible for modders who want to add flotillas specific assignments in the future (i.e. if there was ever a playable Type IX, the Hundius flotilla "campaign" could specialize in long-range missions to reflect the Type IX's longer range). I realize it would require reworking a lot of things.

Like I said, this is probably impractical, but I'm just thinking out loud...

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I see. Here is a radical and maybe unrealistic idea, so ignore it if it doesn't contribute anything : What if each campaign "section" was modified to represent a single U-boat flotilla? This way, you would avoid the problem of missions falling outside a campaign's timeframe, you could simulate "transferring" to other flotillas by choosing a new campaign, and you would add to the immersion of being assigned to a single flotilla for the duration of the war. For example, the 13th U-bootsflottille could become available in June 1943, operate out of Norway until the end of the war, and all missions carried out for by that flotilla could be assigned to that flotilla's "campaign." This might also make campaigns and missions more flexible for modders who want to add flotillas specific assignments in the future (i.e. if there was ever a playable Type IX, the Hundius flotilla "campaign" could specialize in long-range missions to reflect the Type IX's longer range). I realize it would require reworking a lot of things.

Like I said, this is probably impractical, but I'm just thinking out loud...

Not at bad idea at all, and probably feasible. Trevally stated once that we can have as many timelines and as many links between different campaigns as we want.

In part, the current campaigns are based on your concept, but I think it is not applied as strictly as you are suggesting.

Definitely worth discussing it with the "boss" (no, not Springsteen, I am talking about Trev)

[Trevally.]

Originally Posted by gap

As for the rest, the information resumed by you is more than enough. What do you think Trevally?

Yes - perfect

On a side note, I see you provided information on mine laying missions. Unfortunately mines were not yet modded in SH5, and I don't see how minelaying could be made in a "mission accomplished" triggering condition. But who knows, maybe one day...

We do have mines in OHII (from TDW)
I can use them like any unit - set or spawn.
The issue here would be to find the correct triggor to spawn the mine

IIRC correctly, SH5 got issues with bombing raids (game gets unstable). Unfortunately Trevally had to limit Allied planes ranges, just tro prevent them from attacking home ports

Perhaps a limit could be found
If two planes are ok - they could be scripted in.
The issue with airbases sending plane is that they send too many and we get ctd

I think that Illyustrator's MQK grid will make a nice addition to Open Horizon's campaign

I am working on this

besides the enemy attacks tha you can script for simulating radio interceptions, I think that by default the game woul roll dices for determining if any of the messages sent by our radio operator was intercepted by the enemy. Or at least it should be so. Do you know if this feature actually works in campaign?

Yes - I am sure this works as long as you are close enough to an airbase or taskforce

Maybe a better way to mimic random group assignation, could be adding hidden and mutually excluding mission triggers to the objective. It wouldn't be totally random, but since the player wouldn't know the trigger for each group, the result would be the same

I can give spawning any unit by trigger a % spawn chance

In my opinion, being proposed a singular "special missions" should be a rare evenience. But since there would be many missions of each type, during our career we would still have some chances to cope with the requirements of at least few of them. Widening their availability dates, but not too much, would ensure that each time we play again a campaign, there are chances that we will be assigned different duties from the last time we played it...