Free speech in Germany - Not?

[Bill Nichols]

Warning to World Cup fans. The following will get you jail time in Germany:

Nazi salutes
Goose-stepping or doing Basil Fawlty Nazi impressions
Chanting "Two World Wars and One World Cup"
Wearing joke Nazi helmets or any 'offensive' insignia



"We are prepared to use our police powers to hold fans for up to two weeks without charge if we feel they are a threat to public safety and order."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006060530,00.html

[TteFAboB]

Can you do this? ->

[Skybird]

Displaying Nazi symbols in public, Nazi salutes and shouting Hitler sloagans is under penalty in Germany in general, nut just for the sport events.

However, the legal background soemtimes is a bit - unclear. For example the displaying of swastikas and Nazi uniforms is allowed for educational purposes (school teachings, documentaries), whereas swastikas in games are banned.

With regard to to the occasional public demonstration of Nazi parties (who have to name themselves differentely, of course), the definiton and understanding of what is allowed and what not often is tested and shows severe weakness. "Democratic tolerance" versus "Nazi propaganda" is considered to be a "hot iron" in Germany. Most politicians do not dare to adress it directly, fearing to loose voters that are standing at the right border of the poliical spectrum but so far has restricted themselves to chnage their support and vote for Nazi parties directly. The planned ban of a well-known German Nazio party by the german supreme court failed - for questionable procedural errors: the party was infiltrated with BND agents whose identity the BND was not willing to reveal.

Nazi jokes are not funny, even less so in Germany. I see no harm in the rules the Sun reported about. this does not mean we have a total censorship of opinion over here: You will see a lot of reference to the Nazi in German cabaret programs, for example. But of course: never in defense of the Nazi system (that would get every stage actor loosing his job).

[Dan D]

Lol, great find, Sir!

This is a good one, too:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005580313,00.html

"Germans have developed mini-tanks to control the masses".

[STEED]

I wish Germany would stop living in the past and grow up and move on all this banning will only show the world Germany is still embarrass for what the Nazis did come on it’s over 60 years ago it’s history. On a positive light I am glad to see the young Germans moving forward and getting on with their lives well done.

[Sixpack]

So this means the Dutch orange-sprayed Wehrmacht helmets are not a welcome sight then in Jerryland this summer ? Major blow to Dutch economy !

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by STEED

I wish Germany would stop living in the past and grow up and move on all this banning will only show the world Germany is still embarrass for what the Nazis did come on it’s over 60 years ago it’s history.

But that'S exactly how it is over here. I agree, generations born after the Nazi era should not feel such a masisve obligation to feel guilty for the Nazi past, it was not their fault. But wearing ashes on our heads because of WWII still belongs to the way of life in Germany. It is a dominating theme in arts, film, TV, social public life.

And I am fed up with it.

Instead of staying away from picking a side for decades, we should have started to pick sides, but this time the right one. Which most Germans believe we did when opposing the Iraq war. Note how it is different with Iran now. two correct choices in a row - maybe we have started to learn Structure of armed forces is currently in an process of redesigning them, away from exclusive homeland defense, and towards an intervention force (the Puma-project I linked to in the tank-forum is because of that). If our politicians always will make wise use of this changed military option available to them is something different.

On another hand, what makes a right to show Nazi symbols in public and spread Nazi propaganda in public so desirable? A football fan who thinks his sport has something to do with wearing Nazi helmets is no sports fan, but a silly idiot, in my eyes. Not too mention rowdies and hooligans.

And last, consider the general world reaction if germany officialy would allow this kind of stuff, all of a sudden, not only from Israel, but from all direction all you nations immediately would start yelluing at us: "Oh no, the Krauts are going for it again!"

BTW, have you ever eaten Sauerkraut? Tastes terrible, most Germans DO NOT eat it.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Skybird

On another hand, what makes a right to show Nazi symbols in public and spread Nazi propaganda in public so desirable? A football fan who thinks his sport has something to do with wearing Nazi helmets is no sports fan, but a silly idiot, in my eyes. Not too mention rowdies and hooligans.

And last, consider the general world reaction if germany officialy would allow this kind of stuff, all of a sudden, not only from Israel, but from all direction all you nations immediately would start yelluing at us: "Oh no, the Krauts are going for it again!"

BTW, have you ever eaten Sauerkraut? Tastes terrible, most Germans DO NOT eat it.

If the rest of the world can not tell the differents from a real threat and a hooligan well they need to go back to school or get their eyes tested

[Skybird]

That does not answer the question: what makes it so desirable to have a right to wear Nazi stuff in public, shout Nazi slogans in public, etc.?

I remember when prince William (was it him or his briother?) went to that party, wearing a Nazi uniform. Germans were not angry - they simply were stunned in disbelief and then had to laugh. Needless to say that for many Germans his ripeness and mental abilities are severly in doubt since then. i wonder if the ameriancs would laugh if I go to a White house carnival party, wearing a fancy dress of the Ku-Klux-Klan, or the murderer of Abraham Lincoln, or a Abu Graib prison guard. At least they would say it is tasteless, I think. and that's what it is indeed: tasteless at least, and unsensible.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I remember when prince William (was it him or his briother?) went to that party, wearing a Nazi uniform.

It was Harry and that was no uniform he looked like a prat.

[Skybird]

Agreed

[mog]

Originally Posted by STEED

I wish Germany would stop living in the past and grow up and move on all this banning will only show the world Germany is still embarrass for what the Nazis did come on it’s over 60 years ago it’s history. On a positive light I am glad to see the young Germans moving forward and getting on with their lives well done.

It should be noted that the ban on Nazi paraphernalia was enacted by the Allied military government, not the Germans. That they haven't bothered to repeal the law doesn't necessarily mean that they support it.

[STEED]

Today’s Nazi’s are a bunch of mindless yobs that are a joke we got them here in the UK as well just load of s*** rackers forget these prats there are bigger problems in the world to day.

[Skybird]

Well, I agree, but unfortunately the have a bit of influence in Eastgerman districts, in some parts they are supported by up to 25-30% of the population. It is no general characteristic of Germans, but they are too many in some regions as that we could afford to ignore them. Their influence, like that of any extremist ideology, will gain, the more economical and social uncertainty and unemployment is spreading. The Eastgermas saw many of their hopes beeing shattered after the reunificiation, and now they are threateend by lacking economical progress. whoole regions in the East are dying, and you can take that phrase as a reality. Towns where 80, 90% of the people left, and only the old ones stayed. Ghosttowns. My generation will not see the East getting a future, and even older politicians are now admitting this. The ideal fishing ground to fish for young supporters of extremist ideas.

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That does not answer the question: what makes it so desirable to have a right to wear Nazi stuff in public, shout Nazi slogans in public, etc.?

Oh, agreed. But then a muslim might ask why it is so desirable to make cartoons about islam, or a pro-immigration might ask why anyone should be allowed to be against multiculturalism.

That's the problem many people have with true freedom of speech: it also works for those you disagree with. Even if in the football case it is not really a political statement but a nasty joke. Modern football is a bit like government-regulated and subsidized tribal warfare.