The most expensive weapon system of all times

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

No the author has taken data on the Kosovo air war which are facts and has then taken these facts and used them to formulate his opinion(an educated one) about how effective the F-22 and F-35 would be against modern air defenses.It is basically more akin to a thesis.

Agreed. Obviously no one knows how well the F-35 will perform in combat. What the article does show are the reasons that led to the development of the F-35.

Air warfare has always been a cat and mouse game between the offence and the defence. After the 1982 Lebanon war and the 1991 Gulf War, it looked like the pendulum had shifted decisively to the offence, but new tactics were developped during the Iraq no-fly zone operation in 1991-2003 and Kosovo 1999 which showed the defence still had the upper hand.

Kosovo 99 showed that pretty much all non-stealth airplanes were obsolescent. They were restricted in where and when they could fly and what targets they could strike. The Serbians were competent, but they were using SA-3s and SA-6s which were not even the best equipment available in 99. Now even organizations like Hezbollah have access to SA-17s.

In Kosovo, only stealth airplanes like the F-117 and B-2 had relative freedom of movement and they were used for all the high risk strike missions. The Serbs tried very hard to shoot down a F-117 and they only succeeded through a combination of NATO mistakes and good luck. The F-117s were flying predictable, regular routes in and out of Serbia. The Serbs positioned a SAM battery along that route and through other intelligence had a rough idea when the plane would come through. Even then, the Serb commander later admitted that they only detected the aircraft on radar when it opened its bomb bay doors.

The F-117s were also the first generation of stealth airplane. The B-2 bomber which came out 10 years later is supposed to be stealthier than the F-117. The F-35 which is the third generation of stealth airplane is supposed to be even stealthier than the B-2. The USAF certainly believes this since they want the F-35 to be able to take over the B-2s role once the B-2 can no longer penetrate enemy air defences:

What is certain is that a dual-capable F-35 is moving to the center of extended deterrence plans. With its stealth and specialized sensors, the F-35 will soon be the only nuclear-capable fighter able to penetrate the most sophisticated enemy air defenses.

The F-35 could be thrust into the spotlight if the planners judge that the B-2 reaches a point where it is no longer able to penetrate enemy air defenses—especially in daytime. The B-2 does not carry standoff weapons, noted Alston. Threats that keep a B-2 from performing direct nuclear attacks could, in effect, hand that mission, too, to the F-35.

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Mag.../0710nato.aspx

[MH]

Major General Charles Davis, USAF, the Program Executive Officer of the JSF program, explained that critics of the F-35 simply do not understand the fundamental requirements and technologies behind the aircraft, nor have these critics been briefed about the true capabilities of the new warplane. The F-35 is "not designed for an air-show in Paris," Davis said referring to the thrust vectoring Russian Su-35 aircraft which regularly performs spectacular routines at air-shows around the world. Davis said that while the F-35 was not designed as a pure air superiority machine, the program has a requirement to defeat any threat aircraft today- or any projected threat aircraft in the future.

http://www.livescience.com/3032-figh...ure-fleet.html

[HundertzehnGustav]

so the F-35 does the nuking, the Jabo stuff and also the fighting iff needed.
and it is a harrier and can land on carrier decks.
it will do everything except massive tankbusting and local support.

That is a risky game. all cards on one plane.
If it sucks, or the enemy, in time discovers its weaknesses, U loose.
Prettttty arrogant planning.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Agreed. Obviously no one knows how well the F-35 will perform in combat. What the article does show are the reasons that led to the development of the F-35.

Air warfare has always been a cat and mouse game between the offence and the defence. After the 1982 Lebanon war and the 1991 Gulf War, it looked like the pendulum had shifted decisively to the offence, but new tactics were developped during the Iraq no-fly zone operation in 1991-2003 and Kosovo 1999 which showed the defence still had the upper hand.

Kosovo 99 showed that pretty much all non-stealth airplanes were obsolescent. They were restricted in where and when they could fly and what targets they could strike. The Serbians were competent, but they were using SA-3s and SA-6s which were not even the best equipment available in 99. Now even organizations like Hezbollah have access to SA-17s.

In Kosovo, only stealth airplanes like the F-117 and B-2 had relative freedom of movement and they were used for all the high risk strike missions. The Serbs tried very hard to shoot down a F-117 and they only succeeded through a combination of NATO mistakes and good luck. The F-117s were flying predictable, regular routes in and out of Serbia. The Serbs positioned a SAM battery along that route and through other intelligence had a rough idea when the plane would come through. Even then, the Serb commander later admitted that they only detected the aircraft on radar when it opened its bomb bay doors.

The F-117s were also the first generation of stealth airplane. The B-2 bomber which came out 10 years later is supposed to be stealthier than the F-117. The F-35 which is the third generation of stealth airplane is supposed to be even stealthier than the B-2. The USAF certainly believes this since they want the F-35 to be able to take over the B-2s role once the B-2 can no longer penetrate enemy air defences:



http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Mag.../0710nato.aspx

I do find it interesting that the author choose Kosovo he ignored two CAP/SEAD campaigns that lasted for over a decade and where generally fairly successful Operations Southern and Northern Watch.

The bit about the F-35 replacing the B-2 sounds somewhat like a strong F-35 supporters hopes more than anything realistic.Be wary of any thing published by the Air Force Association they are a very opinionated bunch and have no official connection to the USAF though some AFA members are active or former members of the USAF.

[MH]

Originally Posted by HundertzehnGustav

so the F-35 does the nuking, the Jabo stuff and also the fighting iff needed.
and it is a harrier and can land on carrier decks.
it will do everything except massive tankbusting and local support.

That is a risky game. all cards on one plane.
If it sucks, or the enemy, in time discovers its weaknesses, U loose.
Prettttty arrogant planning.

No its not.
The 4th and 4.5 proven and upgraded planes are still in production.

[HundertzehnGustav]

ask me again in 15 years.
i look forward to this thing failing and the navy, marines and air force beeping about it, requesting something that actually works.

A lot of things do not sound , look right about it.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by HundertzehnGustav

ask me again in 15 years.
i look forward to this thing failing and the navy, marines and air force beeping about it, requesting something that actually works.

A lot of things do not sound , look right about it.

right...the USAF, U.S.N., U.S.M.C., UK, Canada, Israel, etc., all military professionals who have designed or purchased aircraft or other military equipment in the past and somehow always managed to buy equipment that worked AND was better than what it replaced, will in this one case make a mistake...right.