The most expensive weapon system of all times

[Jimbuna]

No doubt...tis just a pity they've nothing better to offer.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

The leadership at Boeing has got to be tickled pink over this whole show.

Why? Plane has become 'too-big-to-fail' from political point of view - remember that work is nicely divided between congressional districts. Lockheed Martin can milk U.S. government out of its money no matter whether the aircraft actually works or not nor what the final price will be. Sound like dream situation to me.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

Why? Plane has become 'too-big-to-fail' from political point of view - remember that work is nicely divided between congressional districts. Lockheed Martin can milk U.S. government out of its money no matter whether the aircraft actually works or not nor what the final price will be. Sound like dream situation to me.

The selection of Lockheed's X-35 over Boeing's X-32 in the JSF compeition marked what appeared to be the departure of Boeing from the military fighter market. With Lockheed failing to deliver, that next contract is more likely to be up for grabs, allowing Boeing another chance. At the very minimum, the bad press now attributed to Lockheed puts some wind back in Boeing's sails.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

The selection of Lockheed's X-35 over Boeing's X-32 in the JSF compeition marked what appeared to be the departure of Boeing from the military fighter market. With Lockheed failing to deliver, that next contract is more likely to be up for grabs, allowing Boeing another chance. At the very minimum, the bad press now attributed to Lockheed puts some wind back in Boeing's sails.

Good point! Didn't think it from that perspective.

[Skybird]

Whatever the technological specifications are, they need to skip the F-35 and build a much cheaper airplane.

When your state finances (which means: your state's debts) are like they are today, you do not throw your lent money out of the windows like this.

One cannot have what one cannot afford. Too many people think states can run forever by the infinite-money cheat. It is a cheat. States using it first delay collapse by robbing their citizen. Then the next generation by stealing its future. When there is nothing left they could rob, it all collapses. There is no winner, all are loosers, and a new match is laucnhed.

And then it goes the same way again, it seems. Since centuries. Since millenia. Is man maybe genetically designed to be too stupid to learn?

[Glock30Eric]

Yes. There are three groups of people on earth.

1) People that makes things to happens.
2) People that watches things to happens.
3) People were took off by a surprised and said, "WTF that happened!?"

Majority of the people are #3.

[Oberon]

I know there was a plan a while ago to build a CAS aircraft that was essentially a Cessna with Hellfires for environments where an A10 would be overkill. Not sure whatever came of that.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Whatever the technological specifications are, they need to skip the F-35 and build a much cheaper airplane.

When your state finances (which means: your state's debts) are like they are today, you do not throw your lent money out of the windows like this.

One cannot have what one cannot afford. Too many people think states can run forever by the infinite-money cheat. It is a cheat. States using it first delay collapse by robbing their citizen. Then the next generation by stealing its future. When there is nothing left they could rob, it all collapses. There is no winner, all are loosers, and a new match is laucnhed.

And then it goes the same way again, it seems. Since centuries. Since millenia. Is man maybe genetically designed to be too stupid to learn?

Building the cheaper plane was supposed to be one of the hallmarks of the program; it is why the whole JSF competition was held. It was supposed produce an aircraft with similar performance to the F-22, but with a fraction of the price tag, much like the Virginia and the SSN-21. Unfortunately, Lockheed has dropped the ball so often as to look like Cleveland Browns and the price tag has skyrocketed.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Glock30Eric

Yes. There are three groups of people on earth.

1) People that makes things to happens.
2) People that watches things to happens.
3) People were took off by a surprised and said, "WTF that happened!?"

Majority of the people are #3.

No, five groups.

4) People always living beyond their means at the expense of others.

5) People consuming everything around and when the next generations ask what is left for them and where to live, they just shrug their shoulders and say: "It surely was my party, but it surely is your problem."

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Whatever the technological specifications are, they need to skip the F-35 and build a much cheaper airplane.

Building a "cheaper airplane" means continuing the production of current 4th gen planes, but these planes were already obsolescent during the Kosovo op in 99. In Kosovo, the Serbians showed what you could do with smart tactics. They did not shoot down too many planes, but they forced NATO planes to fly at high altitudes and away from suspected SAM/AAA nests. More importantly, the Serbian Army, which was the main target, had almost complete freedom of movement and suffered only light casualties. No doubt the Russians were behind the new tactics. Since then, air defences have only improved.

Russia and China are currently spending billions of dollars to upgrade their air forces and are developping their own 5th generation planes, the Russian PAK FA and the Chinese J-20. I hope no one is still under the impression that the US has a huge technological edge over Russia and China? The gap is narrowing rapidly and could be gone in as little as 5 years if the US stops funding new technology.

The risk is not just a war with Russia and China, but since both are major arms exporter, whatever they build will eventually be sold to other nations. Last month, the IAF destroyed a shipment of SA-17 on their way to Hezbollah. If they are getting the best Russian SAMs on the market, you can be sure every tinpot dictator already has them.

As to saving money, I would think the experiences of the 1920-1930s would show that a strong defence is a lot cheaper in the long run than any war.

[MH]

I'm not sure what will become of f35 yet im pretty sure that experience gained and the "pushing of technological envelope" on this project will pay off in next time....if it will have to come to this.

Also remember all those airplanes that briefly went in and out of service in early jet age and led in to all the successful 4th generation designs.
It also costed loads of money but with more diversity.
The f22 seems to be good at the job it was designed to do.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Building a "cheaper airplane" means continuing the production of current 4th gen planes, but these planes were already obsolescent during the Kosovo op in 99. In Kosovo, the Serbians showed what you could do with smart tactics. They did not shoot down too many planes, but they forced NATO planes to fly at high altitudes and away from suspected SAM/AAA nests. More importantly, the Serbian Army, which was the main target, had almost complete freedom of movement and suffered only light casualties. No doubt the Russians were behind the new tactics. Since then, air defences have only improved.

Russia and China are currently spending billions of dollars to upgrade their air forces and are developping their own 5th generation planes, the Russian PAK FA and the Chinese J-20. I hope no one is still under the impression that the US has a huge technological edge over Russia and China? The gap is narrowing rapidly and could be gone in as little as 5 years if the US stops funding new technology.

The risk is not just a war with Russia and China, but since both are major arms exporter, whatever they build will eventually be sold to other nations. Last month, the IAF destroyed a shipment of SA-17 on their way to Hezbollah. If they are getting the best Russian SAMs on the market, you can be sure every tinpot dictator already has them.

As to saving money, I would think the experiences of the 1920-1930s would show that a strong defence is a lot cheaper in the long run than any war.

Fear-mongering over drops in your defence budget? That is hilarious (LINK)

You country has trillions and trillions in explicit debt. It has 800% of that in implicit debt- minimum. Your treasury is a total and utmost mess. Every day you increase your debt burden by dimensions that the human mind cannot imagine.

Your defence budget still has grown from 2011 to 2012. It now is three times as big as that of Russia and China together. It is as big as that of the 16 nations with the next biggest defence budgets wordwide alltogether.

When you have payed your debts, and secured your financial stability in black instead of red numbers, and your implicit debts and obligations of the next 30 years - one generation - are significantly smaller than your yearly GDP - then you can claim that your economy is healthy enough to support the maintenance of such an big military apparatus like yours.

Right now, every dollar you spent, is a dollar you have borrowed - borrowed additionally to the 18 trillions of debts you already have in explicit debts, and the 140+ trillions in implicit debts resulting from your already accumulated inherent obligations. What that means? You are broke. Bancrupt. Insolvent. Burnt. Done. Not one penny your state spends, is yours. You live on tick. You pump up a bubble. Granted, over here we do the same. Just not on that total scale, not reaching that total in red numbers. Still, since we talk about multiple-time overkill debts, these differences do not really matter anymore.

Maybe it is a good idea to invest into the military indeed. We will need it to fight off our children when they have grown up and go after our throats for what we have done to their future.

2011, some politician from either Brazil or India attended a finance conference, and was asked what the rising powers and BRISK states would advise the West to do over the debt crisis. His words were as sober as they were precise (quitong by mind and translatring from the German text I read back then: "You will need to learn to be poor. You will need to learn that you cannot afford what you want to have. You will need to learn to be where we have been. You will need to learn to get along with the little you have, not with the much you dream to have if only things were different than how they are for you."

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by MH

The f22 seems to be good at the job it was designed to do.

F-22 is great, but its a pure air superiority fighter. The F35 will take over the fighter-bomber role.

[Oberon]

I'd say that nothing is going to fix the US debt problem, not in this generation and probably not in the next. It is too far gone to be fixed conventionally, the hole is so deep that no ladder can reach the bottom of it, so the only way forward is to keep digging and hope you reach China (pardon the expression).
Honestly, whilst austerity can possibly help fix some budgets that are moderately in debt, such colossal numbers as the US has...no, I don't think it can be done that way. Furthermore, the US public will simply not accept it, and you've got a general public that is quite capable, willing, and some might say eager, to overthrow any form of tyrannical government that they perceive to be present. So the only way the US government can stay in power is to keep these people happy with bread and circuses whilst attempting to maintain the perception of military strength in order to prevent its enemies from taking advantage of its difficult position.
I would not trade positions with the President of the United States of America for all the money in the world, not now and not for the next three generations.
America is not doomed, it's not going to turn into some sort of dystopia like some European and Asian (and some American) writers seem to think it is, however it does face some rocky times ahead, make no mistake, as we all do, but they will pull through it.

[MH]

Is USA really in such a bad shape?

I understand that one is supposed to rant here but keep in mind that American economy is in much better shape and with stronger foundation than of most other countries .
The numbers are scary (usa is big economy)and steps must be taken but it does not necessary look like dooms day.