Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Armistead

The problem isn't so much with lobbies, but people that won't stand up for what they believe, like many politicains that would sell out.

I think you're totally wrong there. The problem across the board are lobbies and interest groups. Our politicians enter their first term with the intention of serving the people, but end up being bought and paid for by the end of their first week in office. It's why we can't make any progress on energy -- in any direction. It's why we can't do anything about the budget. The influcence of these groups have caused our politicians to lose the ability to actually negotiate long-term solutions.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I think you're totally wrong there. The problem across the board are lobbies and interest groups. Our politicians enter their first term with the intention of serving the people, but end up being bought and paid for by the end of their first week in office. It's why we can't make any progress on energy -- in any direction. It's why we can't do anything about the budget. The influcence of these groups have caused our politicians to lose the ability to actually negotiate long-term solutions.

I agree, but the problem is corrupt politicians, not lobbies. Lobbies are simply groups of people combining together to push their beliefs. You start a lobby, I start one to counter you, it's the American way.

The NRA isn't really a big lobby itself, it's a force because millions of non-members believe in many of it's principles. The anti-gun people can't compete with this force. I'm sure they're many Dems in gun states that are really anti-gun, but rather than stand up for what they believe, they pretend to be pro-gun. Probably why Reid won't bring up a gun vote, scared if he forces these Dems to vote with the party, they'll lose their upcoming elections...If he does call a vote, he'll lose and he knows it, politicians would rather keep their seats.

The fact America is a gun nation has little to do with the NRA, but because most want to own guns for numerous reasons.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I agree, but the problem is corrupt politicians, not lobbies. Lobbies are simply groups of people combining together to push their beliefs. You start a lobby, I start one to counter you, it's the American way.

That's like saying that the problem isn't the drug pushers, it's the drug users. And just because something is traditionally done does not mean that that tradition is the best, or even right way to go about it. History is littered with harmful traditions.

The NRA isn't really a big lobby itself, it's a force because millions of non-members believe in many of it's principles. The anti-gun people can't compete with this force. I'm sure they're many Dems in gun states that are really anti-gun, but rather than stand up for what they believe, they pretend to be pro-gun. Probably why Reid won't bring up a gun vote, scared if he forces these Dems to vote with the party, they'll lose their upcoming elections...If he does call a vote, he'll lose and he knows it, politicians would rather keep their seats.

The fact America is a gun nation has little to do with the NRA, but because most want to own guns for numerous reasons.

The NRA is an extremely powerful lobby. It's not like the oil lobby (no other lobby is anywhere near that powerful), but it is has a lot of influence.

America is a gun nation. Huh. That's an odd phrase, but a telling one.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

That's like saying that the problem isn't the drug pushers, it's the drug users. And just because something is traditionally done does not mean that that tradition is the best, or even right way to go about it. History is littered with harmful traditions.



The NRA is an extremely powerful lobby. It's not like the oil lobby (no other lobby is anywhere near that powerful), but it is has a lot of influence.

America is a gun nation. Huh. That's an odd phrase, but a telling one.

Well, I would say it is the drug users. I choose not to do drugs and obey the law. If people are willing to commit crimes, someone will be there to meet their needs. Supply only exist because of demand.

The NRA only has 4 million members. That leaves over 100,000,000 gun owners not members. That is where the real power lies. However, the NRA is growing and will always be a force.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Armistead

The NRA only has 4 million members.

Over 4 million now. They got quite a few new memberships since Feinstien and Obama starting running their mouths.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Armistead

The NRA only has 4 million members. That leaves over 100,000,000 gun owners not members. That is where the real power lies. However, the NRA is growing and will always be a force.

The number I read was closer to 50 million gun owners (gun owners not guns). But in any case, the NRA represents less than 10% of the gun owners in this country. That is something worth considering.

I have been an active gun owner for over 30 years and I have never been, nor want to be, a NRA member.

The NRA is a powerful lobby only because politicians think they are powerful. But that could be said about pretty much any lobby.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Platapus

The number I read was closer to 50 million gun owners (gun owners not guns). But in any case, the NRA represents less than 10% of the gun owners in this country. That is something worth considering.

I have been an active gun owner for over 30 years and I have never been, nor want to be, a NRA member.

The NRA is a powerful lobby only because politicians think they are powerful. But that could be said about pretty much any lobby.

No one really knows for sure, but most studies believe about 50% household in the US own guns. Many reports state they're about 300 million guns in the US, but in reality it's probably triple that.

The NRA is a powerful lobby, but the real power is all the gun owners. Politicians don't just think they're powerful, they are.

[Feuer Frei!]

Membership of the NRA is last rumoured to be around 4.5 million. Although the NRA has been known to inflate membership numbers.
Others are saying it's true membership number is closer to 3 million.
The NRA picked up in the month following the Newtown, Conn. shooting 250, 000 new members. Apparently.
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...0-in-one-month
Business was good for them. No matter how you slice or dice the true numbers.
It seems that everytime President Obama opens his mouth new members flock to the NRA.
A 1-year membership, normally costing $35 costs $25 and you have a choice of picking between 3 free gifts when signing up! Errm, right.
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/s....7&hid=6137499

Reps for the NRA recently sat down with Joe Biden and stated that the administration had an "agenda to attack the Second Amendment."
The administration has since drawn criticism and concern from pro-gun advocates, who have taken Obama's declaration that he'll seek executive action on the issue of gun violence as a signal that his administration is preparing to mount a "gun grab."

I'm sure members of congress still think that negative NRA ratings and a flood of NRA money could sink their political careers faster than you could say AK-47.
But let's look at what is actually really happening. People and members of congress i'd say are waking up to the fact that there really isn't much behind the NRA's curtain of invincibility and magical aura but the voice of a special interest bully who gets his power mainly from perception rather than reality.
Officers and Lobbyists of the NRA actually representing weapons manufacturers, not gun owners, that's why they seem to refuse to support common sense restrictions military style assault weapons, magazines that hold a hundred bullets, or background checks for anyone who buys a gun.
They love to frighten law-abiding gun owners with the prospect that common sense measures to reduce gun violence put America on the "slippery slope" to end the right to bear arms and to the confiscation of your hunting rifle. Their attempts to develop paranoia about confiscation -- and about government tyranny -- are good for business; it's that simple.

Frightening gun owners with the false or phony line of confiscation.

P.S.: Some statistical data in relation to gun ownership etc

47% Percentage of Americans who say they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property, according to Gallup, the highest reported number in two decades
310 million Estimated number of firearms in the U.S., according to the federal government, which includes 114 million handguns, 110 million rifles, and 86 million shotguns
3,252,404 Number of firearms imported into the U.S. (529,056 shotguns, 998,072 rifles, and 1,725,276 handguns) in 2010, according to the ATF
846,619 Number of firearms imported into the U.S. in 2011 from Brazil, the leading gun importer to the U.S., according to the ATF
6,808,538 Number of background checks on firearm purchasers conducted by the FBI this year through November, an all-time record
78,211 Number of firearm purchase denials by the FBI in 2011, about 0.48% of all attempted purchases
899,099 Number of firearm purchases that have been denied by the FBI between November 30, 1998 (when the FBI began processing background checks) and December 31, 2011. Of those, 7,879 were denied because of issues relating to the would-be purchaser’s mental health
62% Percentage of private gun sellers who agreed to sell a firearm to a buyer who couldn’t pass a background check, according to an undercover investigation by New York City public officials
And....................................
$14 million Amount of money the National Rifle Association spent during the 2012 election in an attempt to defeat President Obama, according to The New York Times


SOURCE for data: http://business.time.com/2012/12/18/...y-the-numbers/

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

America is a gun nation. Huh. That's an odd phrase, but a telling one.

I think the gun, in America, has taken on a symbolic meaning of freedom and independence that has been woven into our national fabric even before the founding of our country with the revolutionary war.

edit:
This is why I say even before the revolutionary war, I think this is the beginning of our national image and tapestry.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I think the gun, in America, has taken on a symbolic meaning of freedom and independence that has been woven into our national fabric even before the founding of our country with the revolutionary war.

edit:
This is why I say even before the revolutionary war, I think this is the beginning of our national image and tapestry.

To you, it does. America is a large and diverse nation, and as such the meaning of American freedom and independence varies per person or group. On the Fourth of July I don't think of guns. You do. Both are fine, but I resent people trying to tell me what America means.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

To you, it does. America is a large and diverse nation, and as such the meaning of American freedom and independence varies per person or group. On the Fourth of July I don't think of guns. You do. Both are fine, but I resent people trying to tell me what America means.

Well, On the fourth of July, I don't think of guns either. I think July 4th, 1776, declaration of independence. Do you really think all gun owners think about is guns? If so your sterotyping just as bad as the people I think your admonishing.

Also you can't tell me the pilgrims aren't part of, if not the start of, our national fabric. It's taught in schools, its in the history books, and celebrated every year in November. Just because it isn't in your frame of reference, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Something like this, you might see somewhere during the thanksgiving holiday, every year.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Well, On the fourth of July, I don't think of guns either. I think July 4th, 1776, declaration of independence. Do you really think all gun owners think about is guns? If so your sterotyping just as bad as the people I think your admonishing.

Well then we're back to that narrative that America is a gun nation. Not a nation that permits gun ownership; a gun nation. The connotation is that if you are a real American, you own a gun. You can see language of that sort right here in this very thread, and all over GT for the past two months. That's the kind of narrow interpretation of what it means to be American that has hamstrung the GOP. There are a lot of Americans that don't think that way.

Also you can't tell my the pilgrims aren't part of, if not the start of, our national fabric. It's taught in schools, its in the history books, and celebrated every year in November. Just because it isn't in your frame of reference, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Something you might see somewhere during the thanksgiving holiday, every year.

Then there's the other part of the pilgrim mythos; the part where they were unable to use those guns to feed themselves adequately and were relieved by the Native Americans, (who were then ultimately betrayed, but that is another issue and one that, if I recall, we both agree on). In other words, it is not so simple to say that America is a gun nation. Firearms have been present throughout American history, but they are but one small thread in a tapestry made of millions of equally small threads.

[Ducimus]

I don't necessarily agree with everything the NRA says or does, but they are the best organization to defend the second amendment.

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I think you're totally wrong there. The problem across the board are lobbies and interest groups. Our politicians enter their first term with the intention of serving the people, but end up being bought and paid for by the end of their first week in office. It's why we can't make any progress on energy -- in any direction. It's why we can't do anything about the budget. The influcence of these groups have caused our politicians to lose the ability to actually negotiate long-term solutions.

All too true, and while i don't like how this is how things are in this manner, it isn't going to change anytime soon. It is also why I gave the NRA a two year membership and other monetary donations to begin with. The real power in our government is not in the voting booth. If you want the real power, just follow the money. Contributing money to the NRA is tantamount to going to a voting booth, only much more effective.

edit:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I agree, but the problem is corrupt politicians, not lobbies.

Also true in my opinion. Politicans don't care about anything but keeping their jobs and maintaining power and prestige. They are little more then puppets, and more often then not, are not representative of their people. They get into office, then do what they want anyway if they think they can get away with it.