Ex-LAPD policeman surrounded in cabin in Big Bear, CA

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Intended and partially executed multiple/mass murder is just that, and I do not wish to excuse it.

However, LAPD has won questionable fame worldwide for racism and racism-related misconduct by police forces. Dorner claimed that he got fired in I think 2007 due to filing in a wrong accusation regarding a colleague who should have mistreated a mentally retarded prisoner. Yesterday I fetched up that that case has been reopened by investigators. Leaves two questions: will such an examination against a police officer in a department like LA have a fair chance to go unhindered, and second: what if they find that Dorner's claim about what happened in 2007 - were correct? It would not excuse his killing spree. But it would explain some things, and open some unwelcomed perspectives.

There must be a reason why he has ticked out so dramatically - even if it would be a mental disease or underlaying psychosis.

Well, you just tried to excuse it...

I don't know of a person that can go through life and not be wronged, I know I have. Should I go on a murder spree. Our culture is creating a deadly mindset always trying to excuse murderers.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Well, you just tried to excuse it...

I don't know of a person that can go through life and not be wronged, I know I have. Should I go on a murder spree. Our culture is creating a deadly mindset always trying to excuse murderers.

Thank you. Care to rationally explain that? And in case that already is asked too much, to elaborate the difference between "excuse" and "explanation"?

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Thank you. Care to rationally explain that? And in case that already is asked too much, to elaborate the difference between "excuse" and "explanation"?

You excused it with the "However". It's like saying "I'm sorry, BUT".

There is no explanation except he was angry and evil. Millions of people suffer wrong and have no need to murder innocent people. My guess is some of his complaint is right, but after he was fired, instead of picking up his life like normal people do, he fumed in anger for years. I bet he was killing people in his head years ago. He chose not to make proper change in his life. He could've filed a civil lawsuit, called the NAACP, fought racism, helped others. Instead he blamed others, giving up control of his life. Sure, we could find explanations for his anger, but not for his murdering innocent people.

I got wrongly fired once, because my Supervisor lied to protect his butt, was I mad, you bet, did I go on a shooting rampage killing innocent people....no.

[TLAM Strike]

I looked over some of his manifesto, best quote ever...

If you had a well regulated AWB, this would not happen. The time is now to reinstitute a ban that will save lives.

Get rid of your guns or I kill you?

So remember support a new AWB, it's what Chris Dorner (cop killer, murderer of four) would want.

Sheesh its not the guns, in the constant anti-gun rhetoric and prominent news stories of mass shootings that glorify the killers that put ideas like this in to the heads of disturbed people. Get a gun; you'll be a rebel cuz The Man doesn't want you to have one, shoot a bunch of people; everyone will know your name from CNN. It once was kids, then it was felons, now it's people with training.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Sheesh its not the guns, in the constant anti-gun rhetoric and prominent news stories of mass shootings that glorify the killers that put ideas like this in to the heads of disturbed people. Get a gun; you'll be a rebel cuz The Man doesn't want you to have one, shoot a bunch of people; everyone will know your name from CNN. It once was kids, then it was felons, now it's people with training.

So anti-narcotics law enforcement is responsible drug use. Laws against domestic abuse are responsible for men beating their wives. Traffic laws are the reason behind reckless driving. That's some logic.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

So anti-narcotics law enforcement is responsible drug use. Laws against domestic abuse are responsible for men beating their wives. Traffic laws are the reason behind reckless driving. That's some logic.

Laws are not stopping such acts are they? The idea that such acts are acceptable is the problem. The problem is that the portrayal of such acts in the media glorify them, not in that they are just shown but in the context they are shown as positive.

Be like Snoop, smoke weed every day. While your at it smack a ho, you'll be a real pimp then. Your beamer is the best car in the world, people will stop for you as you drive by texting.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Laws are not stopping such acts are they? The idea that such acts are acceptable is the problem. The problem is that the portrayal of such acts in the media glorify them, not in that they are just shown but in the context they are shown as positive.

Be like Snoop, smoke weed every day. While your at it smack a ho, you'll be a real pimp then. Your beamer is the best car in the world, people will stop for you as you drive by texting.

So should we do away with the laws? That would be pretty silly.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Armistead

There is no explanation except he was angry and evil. Millions of people suffer wrong and have no need to murder innocent people. My guess is some of his complaint is right, but after he was fired, instead of picking up his life like normal people do, he fumed in anger for years. I bet he was killing people in his head years ago. He chose not to make proper change in his life. He could've filed a civil lawsuit, called the NAACP, fought racism, helped others. Instead he blamed others, giving up control of his life. Sure, we could find explanations for his anger, but not for his murdering innocent people.

That has got to be one of the best comments on this subject that I've read anywhere.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That has got to be one of the best comments on this subject that I've read anywhere.

Aye. It makes sense. Whereas when I was reading Dorner's rant, it was the very beginning that already confused me. He went on for a long time about how important the name is to a fellow and how you do things to make a name for yourself and keep it good.

And so his solution for clearing his name is...to start killing people like his former lawyer's daughter and her boyfriend? That's his solution?

He wanted not to be remembered as a man who filed an unfounded complaint against his colleague and decided to instead be remembered as a man who murdered people, went on the run and died in fire if the latest reports are to be believed.

How the heck is that helping in the society remembering him as an honorable and good fellow?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Armistead

You excused it with the "However". It's like saying "I'm sorry, BUT".

There is no explanation except he was angry and evil. Millions of people suffer wrong and have no need to murder innocent people. My guess is some of his complaint is right, but after he was fired, instead of picking up his life like normal people do, he fumed in anger for years. I bet he was killing people in his head years ago. He chose not to make proper change in his life. He could've filed a civil lawsuit, called the NAACP, fought racism, helped others. Instead he blamed others, giving up control of his life. Sure, we could find explanations for his anger, but not for his murdering innocent people.

I got wrongly fired once, because my Supervisor lied to protect his butt, was I mad, you bet, did I go on a shooting rampage killing innocent people....no.

All that so far is just your belief.

Next time you are in town, go to the library and get a book on psyciatric case-studies. You'd be surprised to learn that people can be or become that mad that they become delusional, start to hear voice sin their head, write hundreds of pages of cryptic theories about how they think "they" are watching them from 5th dimension, and finally started to kill people.

I do not excuse what he did, and I said that several times, in black on white letters. But if you cannot differ between an excuse and an explanation - I do not buy your theory on how the one leads to the other necessarily - then the problem is with you, and your exlcusively. And when I ask those two question that I pout up, your reaction just is to accuse me of sympathising with a multiple murder and wanting to excuse that, I am getting slightly pissed by that, like I get pissed when I would get called a Nazi because I explained my view on how and why Hitler was able to come to power and install his control.

Excuse and explanation are two totally different things, to start with. You can enact as if you do not understand this in order to get a cheap opportunity for a quick slap at somebody. But still excuse remains to be something different than an explanation.

It also helps not to try to think with a by a bag of aroused emotions. Feeling, and thinking, are two different things too, you know.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Skybird

All that so far is just your belief.

Next time you are in town, go to the library and get a book on psyciatric case-studies. You'd be surprised to learn that people can be or become that mad that they become delusional, start to hear voice sin their head, write hundreds of pages of cryptic theories about how they think "they" are watching them from 5th dimension, and finally started to kill people.

I do not excuse what he did, and I said that several times, in black on white letters. But if you cannot differ between an excuse and an explanation - I do not buy your theory on how the one leads to the other necessarily - then the problem is with you, and your exlcusively. And when I ask those two question that I pout up, your reaction just is to accuse me of sympathising with a multiple murder and wanting to excuse that, I am getting slightly pissed by that, like I get pissed when I would get called a Nazi because I explained my view on how and why Hitler was able to come to power and install his control.

Excuse and explanation are two totally different things, to start with. You can enact as if you do not understand this in order to get a cheap opportunity for a quick slap at somebody. But still excuse remains to be something different than an explanation.

It also helps not to try to think with a by a bag of aroused emotions. Feeling, and thinking, are two different things too, you know.

Certainly it's my belief, because it's my opinion, just as you have yours.

We call those people nut cases. I don't see that here, I see a man that got angry, instead of dealing with that anger, he let it spiral out of control to the point it consumed his life and he sought revenge. It's shameful how many are making a hero out of him. Who among us hasn't been so angry we didn't want to kill someone, but 99% of us realize it solves nothing and instead of blaming and ruining lives, we change ours and move on.

Life has always been a pile of unfair BS, it's something we as humans deal with and mostly live with. No doubt, sometimes it takes violence to bring forth change, but that is different than revenge. You can't compare revenge to a mass revolution of people fighting tyranny.

No doubt many social and cultural issues effect us all, sometimes unfairly. I agree we're all interconnected on many levels, we should try to deal with those issues, but it's not an excuse or explanation to murder innocent people.

As far as I can tell, there was nothing in this mans life to show any mental illness, in fact, this story is common, someone gets fired, they go to killing. It happens everyday. Most of us take responsibility for our lives, a few go into pity mode, blame others, you hurt me so I'll get you.

It's the new political correctness, no one is responsible for their actions anymore, someone else is at fault.


Any explanation for this behavior is unacceptable

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Certainly it's my belief, because it's my opinion, just as you have yours.

We call those people nut cases. I don't see that here, I see a man that got angry, instead of dealing with that anger, he let it spiral out of control to the point it consumed his life and he sought revenge.

Why.

It's shameful how many are making a hero out of him.

Me not.

I was just asking two very legitimate and important questions: now that the case of 2007 is reopened, can an unbiased and unobstructed examination be expected in a department like LA with a certain kind of not really positive reputation that lasts since very long time now, and with the to be expected political pressure to get the report that is wanted to avoid more attention being drawn to this mess. And second question, what will it mean - for example for the public perception - when it is now found that the guys' original file report on his colleague - was correct and justified?

And later I added in the second post that you simply do not know whether he was just born evil, or in other ways turned bad by his own responsibility - or whether he had no other choice than to become what he became due to for example a genetic disposition to form a psychosis, a personality syndrome, whatever.

Why you accused me of excusing what he did, and wrote all the other stuff, simply is beyond me.

Heck, even Bin Laden'S motivation could be explained - without being accused of defending what he did.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Why.


Me not.

I was just asking two very legitimate and important questions: now that the case of 2007 is reopened, can an unbiased and unobstructed examination be expected in a department like LA with a certain kind of not really positive reputation that lasts since very long time now, and with the to be expected political pressure to get the report that is wanted to avoid more attention being drawn to this mess. And second question, what will it mean - for example for the public perception - when it is now found that the guys' original file report on his colleague - was correct and justified?

And later I added in the second post that you simply do not know whether he was just born evil, or in other ways turned bad by his own responsibility - or whether he had no other choice than to become what he became due to for example a genetic disposition to form a psychosis, a personality syndrome, whatever.

Why you accused me of excusing what he did, and wrote all the other stuff, simply is beyond me.

Heck, even Bin Laden'S motivation could be explained - without being accused of defending what he did.

We can look for explanations, but those don't justify murder.
I think it rather obvious they reopened the case hoping it might calm him, not to solve anything, but now they're stuck with that can of worms.

I didn't accuse you, I said we don't excuse murdering innocent people.

Neither of us know if he was born evil, but I don't think any of us are. I don't know all his history, except I've seen no reports of serious mental issues with him. The fact he was in the service and police force, they're pretty good at spotting nuts.

Again, he may have been right in his complaint, he should've taken proper action, he didn't. He was motivated with anger, that caused him to seek revenge.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Skybird

...can an unbiased and unobstructed examination be expected in a department like LA with a certain kind of not really positive reputation that lasts since very long time now...

of course and why not? Is the L.A. PD more or less racist than the:

-Frankfurt PD:

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20121108-46055.html


- Baden-Württemberg state PD:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-847831.html

- Dessau PD:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2012/01/oury-j11.html

- Berlin PD:

http://www.freedominfonetwork.org/pr...acy-in-germany

[CaptainHaplo]

ok you two - behave.

Sky - what Armistead is saying is that by having an "explanation" of why, it can create the "excuse" in the process. This is not always the case, but happens more times than not in cases like this because people use the explanation to excuse the actions.

If the guy was fired unjustly - he should have just sucked it up and moved on with life. We all have stuff hit us that isnt' "fair". The problem is he didn't move on - he chose to let it eat at him to the point of murder. There is no excuse for such actions - but some people (not all) will go to any length to absolve people of personal responsibility. It is that which Armistead is talking about.