The wrong education

[Skybird]

My brilliance fades beside yours, dear Takeda.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

My brilliance fades beside yours, dear Takeda.

It does, but do you have answers to the questions I posted? I know what the answer are, but I want to see if you do, or if you are just spewing hot air on this matter.

[kiwi_2005]

The best education system i am told that NZ need to follow comes from Finland. But our Govt wants nothing of it.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

The best education system i am told that NZ need to follow comes from Finland. But our Govt wants nothing of it.

Finland does it right, especially when it comes to things like tuition.

That's the only hint I'll give.

EDIT: By the way, I am not picking on New Zealand. We have exactly the same problems stateside.

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Finland does it right, especially when it comes to things like tuition.

That's the only hint I'll give.

EDIT: By the way, I am not picking on New Zealand. We have exactly the same problems stateside.

that never entered my mind mate. The tumor out i don't get paranoid anymore, i believe they took out the important part

[Skybird]

Takeda, instead of staging one of your shows again to prove what a clever Dick you are and how clever your talking strategy is to lure the other on thin ice, would it be asked too much of you if you just say in plain words what you have to reply to the article. Could this be done? So far you just attacked me again by your underhanded, poisonous tone from your second reply on (don't try to deny it, we both know that you meant it as a personal volley), and illustrated the amount of your haughtiness, but on the topic you left it to ranting and vague hints in the hope the others - me - would start to dance and jump through firewheels when you blow the whistle. I think I would not be the only one appreciating it if instead of making a show you just would give your arguments - and resulting opinion from these - and leave it to that.

Why I support the view of the article? Because it is not the first time I read that, and more important, because I get feedback supporting these complaints from - let'S see: my best friend is teacher. Another more distant buddy of mine is teacher. My grandfather was teacher. The husband of a close girlfriend of mine is teacher, and her sister is teacher, and two friends of my parents are/were teachers. And my diploma paper was about motivation and approaches to different working styles of economists, psychologists and - teachers. And finally we have the studies being done on the effectiveness, or lack of, of the German schools, which currently is a scene of chaos that is unique in the Western world, as far as I know, due to too many reforms overlapping each other, and partially being reversed again, or only partially implemented, and not just in every state but in every city things are being done slightly different. One thing is clear from the statistical evaluations over the past twenty years: there is too much ideological experimenting, grades went up, but competences in reading, writing and maths, also history, declined - in ALL school models that we have, though in the schools at the lower end of the scale more, and at the better schools (Gymnasiums) less. At the same time, the shortening of schoolyears at Gymnasiums caused more stress on the kids because the old plans of what had to be learned were not cleaned up, but left as they were and then got additional stuff added to them. More stuff in shorter time. With fewer teachers. And more problematic class mixtures in regions with higher migration quotas. Not good.

And this I combine with and link to some more, other books, about the psychology of learning, the pedagogic movement and its forerunners in late 19th century, plus the occasional media input on politics and employers complaining that they must spend more and more money to teach the young people who come from school in even basic math and writing/reading, like the article I linked also complains about (and which btw is not a blog contribution, but a reprint of a NZL newspaper essay). It is an open secret that grades at universities in Europe have seen an inflation in higher grades, and that things have become worse due to the Barcelona process, because friendly professors do not wish to throw sticks between graduates' legs by giving them the grades they deserve - instead they give the grades that are needed, very often. I profiteered from that, too, receiving a final note of 1.2, but I am honest enough to say that that means nothing and that may performances in final exams and the diploma paper all in all were more a 2.5, imo - but one score step you get rewarded extra if it is the final exam. Is it justified by the candidates' performance? No, it is not. The result is that employers with experience simply do not look at notes anymore, because they do not mean much anymore. Is that what things should be like? Why having notes at all, then? Qualifications - is that a thing of the past maybe? In the world of the dilettante, yes. Because as I earlier said: for the dilettante not his skill is what defines his competence, but what he wants to be capable of defines how he sees himself. Its all around us. If you do not believe what I say, open your eyes. Its all around us, everywhere. Happens in the jobs. In schools, in TV shows. The dilettante is the hero of the modern present. Especially when you have cable TV.

The problem I see resulting from

a.) unfit study programs transporting too much praxis-irrelevant stuff in medicine, psychology, too much stuff of outdated or questionable scientific value in social sciences, and too much ideologically motivated stuff in social sciences and education sciences;

and b.) there is a movement away from the old Humboldt ideal of what university education should be about: giving a view on things beyond the rim of one'S own discipline, and there is a trend towards pure economic need and pragmatism, in other words: a reductionist focussing and specialising. Not the Why is being cared for that much anymore, but the How, and the How should financially pay of as fast as possible and lead to products ready to sell. Education, knowledge, insight as a value justifying itself - I fear that is currently an endangered view on things. - This - what I listed under b.) - is effecting economic studies, obviously, but also the hardcore natural sciences physics, chemistry, in parts also biology. Engineering and IT anyway.

How worse it is becoming with university entry tests, the example from Vienna shows that I have quoted in other threads, where for ideological reasons they even tried to lower the needed scores for female candidates - to artificially push the quota of girls studying medicine, which meant that better scoring male candidates were thrown out and males in general have to score better notes to qualify, than girls. By tendency, this is slowly creeping on in most of Europe. In Vienna, students went to the courts, and the university had to annule the procedure - for the moment. Things like this are being tried in most of europe, however. The quote-female has turned into a predatory specimen. And often without women wanting that.

This is why the general niveau of university candidates entering the job arena after having finished university, is declining, like the original article states. But it must be combined with the introductory story of the school education before university, and that is what I have tried to summarize in a previous post, though rough and maybe not complete. I cannot help it, I have several teachers in my social environment, and although they partially like the ideology behind the development and partially do not like it, they all agree that the things I tried to describe here nevertheless take place: they see it in their own daily practice, they say. What I said about low frustration tolerance and the like, and what it does with a child when it does not learn how to learn and lacks a certain minimum of discipline at school and the teacher does not act as a teacher fostering this to some degree, also results from feedback I get from teachers, but also book input, and some basic psychological knowledge and conclusions from that.

You must not see it like this, Takeda. But you did not reply to the article, you just sneered from a high haugthy altitude and gave a hint that you know it better - without saying why and what your arguments are, and you scoff at the author, and left it to that and then, after I explained my own views on schools, in reply you switched to your incredibly friendly, heartwarming tone. But you repeatedly (in the past, together with some others) complained about my claimed "arrogance" and "lecturing" - while you play these parental word lecture games of yours, and not for the first time!?

But I am not one of your students, and I do not depend on getting scores from you. So shove your demonstrations where the sun does not shine. Either you have an argument your different opinion is founding on, or you have not. Playing your underhanded games is something I am really very very very tired of, also the wrong words put in my mouth on past occasions, and the intentional misquoting, and ripping my quotes out of context to give them another meaning - I received your treatement several times, and I saw you treating others whose opinions you did not like in the same way (yubba having been the latest example. This is not to say that I agree with yubba that much, however, but I just identify a behaviour pattern), and that's why I tell you: put some space between yourself and me.

Now feel free to explain why you think the author of the original article is wrong, and give your argument(s). Or let it be. Everything else - is just distraction.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Too long , did not read...

In our country we are now no more grading, but "evaluating" students, not attributing notes from 0-60 (worst/best) but having tons of papers with small boxes that need checkmarks for every skill demonstrated.

o can copy text
o can paste text
o can format text
o can insert graphics into document
o knows appropriate graphics formats to keep filesize small
(...)
o can hook up VGA monitor
o can hook up VGA monitor on DVI connector

and yes, i have seen Dudes that had Masters fail at basic french conjugation, red arrogant letters by guys just out of school that made me both laugh and cry.
All in all...
I also feel an erosion in the education taking place.
That is not to piss on others, for i am one of the mentioned "craftsmen", never been inside a Tertiar school whatsoever, except for an emergency dump at the 'loo.

I am not one to find answers myself by using my IQ, combined with trial and error, i believe in proper guidance in the basic skills along with a lot of effort and mistakes, application of the basic skills in the workshop.

I believe good explanations to make more complex matters understandable are needed, and that, after application of the knowledge, the gained understanding must be questioned to ensure the concept has passed to the trainee.

So the question for me is not what is wrong with some systems.
there seems to be sucky education everywhere.

The question is: How do the Northerners do better in teaching, preparing and evaluating their Kids, Teenagers and Youngsters?

[Takeda Shingen]

Save your lecture, Skybird. I am not impressed. Very well, I will hold your hand through it.

The problem with higher education in countries like New Zealand and the United States is very simple. Colleges and universities have been run on the business model for about 60 years now. Tuition is life. As schools have begun to see the benefits of increased revenue, the floodgates opened and college enrollment skyrocketed across the board. The end result is that tertiary education has become an industry first and a tool for societal progress and benefit second.

I teach at a rather well-respected university. Even there, each year I see an increasing number of students coming into my classroom who are ill prepared for the academic rigors of school (which have not changed at all Skybird, sorry to ruin your narrative). I sit on the audition pannels, and we are shall we say 'encouraged' to accept certain quotas of students. That quota is not gender-based, race-based or ethnicity-based. It is simply a number. The university wants X number of butts in the seats for the fall semester. The end results is having students in the university that should not be in the university.

So what's the big deal? Just fail them, right? Not quite. Once they are there, the university wants to keep them there. Having a high turnover is bad for PR, as you can't claim that 'X% of our students graduate and move on to careers in their field' in your commercials. So, once again, the professor is 'encouraged' pass students who shouldn't pass. It is the bane of my existence; the last week of every semester results in a rather uncomfortable confrontation between myself and the Provost's office. See, I refuse to play ball, and I fail students that deserve to fail. I have my tenure, so the university cannot dismiss me for it. Granted, I will never be a department chair, but I am fine with that. I stand on principle.

This problem has trickled both up and down. Postgraduate programs, as your blogger hero has noted, suddenly 'producing' an increasing number of students that do not cut the mustard. Yet, the quality of the programs themselves have not changed, it is simply that universities have begun cashing in there as well. For pre-undergraduate affairs, an entire industry has sprung up around getting your child into the college of their choice. Aside from the obvious sham that the SATs have become, one can hire tutors and agencies to coach the child through the entire application process -- what to say, where to say it, how to write it, etc.

So what does Finland do better? Simple, their university system is not privatized. The industry does not exist there. Students are admitted based on a single test, not an interview, not an essay, not any of the things that allow for a flood of new students. It is about education, not money. Contrast this to what happens stateside. Schools are constantly expanding and constructing new buildings. And what are they constructing? New lecture halls? No, dorms. Go figure.

It is the elephant in the room, the answer is so obvious, but no one wants to talk about it. The reasons are various. For many politicans in my country, acknowleding this problem ruins the narrative that privatization is the answer to everything. For individuals such as your blogger hero and yourself, it ruins your opportunity to project your pet peves into the mix; in this case, political correctness, gender equality and multiculturalism. Such projection does not address the real and dangerous problem, and that is why you, Skybird, and your blogger hero have earned my scorn. You play a dangerous and destructive game to advance your political agenda at the expense of the system of education.