I have always wondered...

Karle94 · 01-21-13, 05:29 AM

Don`t mentzion zhe war!

Herr-Berbunch · 01-21-13, 05:34 AM

Lumping the whole of Asia in with Japan seems a bit much. Almost racist, one might say.

TarJak · 01-21-13, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

Lumping the whole of Asia in with Japan seems a bit much. Almost racist, one might say.

Wun might:

Jimbuna · 01-21-13, 08:17 AM

I'm from neither country but my belief or understanding is that Germany doesn't go into a great deal of detail and Japan believes it was everyones duty to fight for and protect the Emperor.

I'd be really interested in a detailed response from said nationals myself.

Dowly · 01-21-13, 08:33 AM

Looking at the movies Germany makes about WWII, they seem to be quite honest about it.

Oberon · 01-21-13, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I'm from neither country but my belief or understanding is that Germany doesn't go into a great deal of detail and Japan believes it was everyones duty to fight for and protect the Emperor.

I'd be really interested in a detailed response from said nationals myself.

That's the understanding I have as well. Germany is a lot more up front about it though than Japan which seems to periodically attempt a spot of historical revisionism, particularly in regards to its actions in China.

Stealhead · 01-21-13, 09:51 AM

I know there are some Germans on here so they can answer it better.As I recall when I was stationed in Germany they did learn about the Holocaust in great detail in fact I am fairly sure that it in their laws that they must learn about it and the general effect of Hitler and all.

It is also illegal to display a swastika or anything specifically related to the Nazi party.You can get arrested for it.I never even saw neo Nazis display any but they would use emblems in the old style writing used during that time and hide SS in some other name so the shirt they wear has lots of letters on it but the important part says something like "Deutschland SS".

In Japan they don't really learn much factual I know this because a friends wife is Japanese she said that they basically have this stylized view of what Japan did during the war kind of middle groundish and idealized and pro Japanese.So it is up to the Japanese person themselves to learn the truth or follow a different line.There are a lot of Japanese that are very much aware of what happened including the atrocities at the same time there are many that have an idealized view.

The rest of Asia was either victims of Japan or a colony of Great Britain or the US or the Neatherlands in which case they generally have the Allied view of the war.China most certainly learns a lot they being most victimized by the Japanese.In Chinese schools all children learn about the American Volunteer Group better known as the Flying Tigers because their actions saved China from being cut off.If you ask an American kid what the AVG or the Flying Tigers where they will have no idea in most cases ask a Chinese kid and they will know what you are talking about.

Also a little known fact about China is that the Communists where much more determined to fight the Japanese than the Kuomintang where and they would go far out of their way to help American aircrews get back to their base even if it was 1,000 miles out of their way most American pilots felt that the general populace was better treated in Communist controlled areas of China.

Sailor Steve · 01-21-13, 11:47 AM

Traditionally Japan's official policy has always been to deny wrongdoing of any kind, and to assert that Japan was the victim, being attacked for no apparent reason. Several historians and teachers have tried to change this over the years, with varying success, but sooner or later the government textbook policy seems to come back to that theme.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes..._controversies
http://spice.stanford.edu/docs/134

An article from 1988:
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/27/wo...-attacked.html

The Wiki and Stanford articles indicate that things have gotten better since 1988, but that in the 21st century it's happening all over again.

nikimcbee · 01-21-13, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karle94

Don`t mentzion zhe war!

Maybe the third time a charm....?

Red October1984 · 01-21-13, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

Maybe the third time a charm....?

Hey...USA 2 Time World War Champs....

It could go either way with a new world war.... We're so messed up right now...

em2nought · 01-21-13, 01:24 PM

I don't think I even want to know what "we" teach our kids about our history. I think they probably paint us as racist evildoers. I really hate applying our "PC" current attitudes to history or even to old people for that matter.

Red October1984 · 01-21-13, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em2nought

I don't think I even want to know what "we" teach our kids about our history. I think they probably paint us as racist evildoers. I really hate applying our "PC" current attitudes to history or even to old people for that matter.

Where are you from?

em2nought · 01-21-13, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red October1984

Where are you from?

USA, and once upon a time PA thus that last bit I guess.

My mom asked me if I ever watch porn because it's illegal after watching some Bush comment about underage porn a few years back. I had to explain that not all porn is illegal. She's 87, old folks shouldn't have modern standards applied to them, as they're from a different time.

Luckily she didn't ask if I've ever been "in" porn.

Catfish · 01-21-13, 02:21 PM

Obviously, regarding the OP i can only speak of Germany

I went to school in the 70ies and 80ies, and we learned of the 'Nazi' atrocities in a lot of courses and lectures, including visiting some of the concentration camps, and seeing original footage of the time, and of the liberating armies.

Which certainly led to some questions regarding our elders .. it is certainly convenient to be born long after this time, and to think of oneself as an all-knowing superior being, and of surely having been a would-be hero against dictators, if only born in those times. You usually do NOT have the hindsight of the time you are living in.

There are also a lot of memory sites, museums and graveyards, along with the holocaust memory sites, and also 'monuments of shame', if you like to call it that.

I do not know though, how and if that much is being told today in Germany, about this time. And after all there is even more german history, than the 12 years of Hitler's dictatorship.

The problem is also the allied re-education project in Germany, there was also a lot of propaganda in it, e.g. WW1 was just explained as the typical german way to declare war to the world and be generally the bad guy. If you look a bit closer it's a lot of smoke and mirrors though. Niall Ferguson's 'The pity of war' is a real eye-opener in that respect. WW1, mind you.

When i look at what is done today in the name of 'freedom', 'helping' other nations or 'defense', and how the media report about atrocities internationally (atrocities and breaking of international law depending on who did it, otherwise it's the road to freedom), and how willingly people wage wars and join them for the 'right cause', i really do not think that people have learned much.

IMHO the problem is that people die too soon - when they have learned enough about how things and propaganda really work they die, and the new kids are as dumb as those in generations before, and they make the same errors again. And again.
How can you know as a kid, that your education is 'right' ?

That said, i think there is still more thinking about the bad old times in Germany, than in most other countries of the world. I do not want to attack our english or american friends, but i seldomly see a national monument of shame about anything, in their special imperial histories.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

Schroeder · 01-21-13, 02:26 PM

Over here each state has it's own regulations about what is tought in school. The Nazi time was quiet a big part of our history lessons where I went to school.
Even without that everybody knows about the Holocaust and war atrocities committed by German forces here, the topic is pretty omni present. TV shows, memorials etc.

01-21-13, 05:29 AM	#1
Karle94 The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Norseland Posts: 1,355 Downloads: 253 Uploads: 0	Don`t mentzion zhe war! __________________ Find my mods here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/lzgciodldp58p/SH4_Mods My SH4 blog here: http://karle94.blogspot.com/

01-21-13, 05:34 AM	#2
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	Lumping the whole of Asia in with Japan seems a bit much. Almost racist, one might say. __________________

01-21-13, 08:17 AM	#4
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,584 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I'm from neither country but my belief or understanding is that Germany doesn't go into a great deal of detail and Japan believes it was everyones duty to fight for and protect the Emperor. I'd be really interested in a detailed response from said nationals myself. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

01-21-13, 11:47 AM	#8
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Traditionally Japan's official policy has always been to deny wrongdoing of any kind, and to assert that Japan was the victim, being attacked for no apparent reason. Several historians and teachers have tried to change this over the years, with varying success, but sooner or later the government textbook policy seems to come back to that theme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes..._controversies http://spice.stanford.edu/docs/134 An article from 1988: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/27/wo...-attacked.html The Wiki and Stanford articles indicate that things have gotten better since 1988, but that in the 21st century it's happening all over again. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo Last edited by Sailor Steve; 01-21-13 at 01:09 PM.

01-21-13, 01:24 PM	#11
em2nought Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 3,485 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I don't think I even want to know what "we" teach our kids about our history. I think they probably paint us as racist evildoers. I really hate applying our "PC" current attitudes to history or even to old people for that matter. __________________ em2nought is ecstatic garbage!

01-21-13, 08:33 AM	#5
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,053 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Looking at the movies Germany makes about WWII, they seem to be quite honest about it.

01-21-13, 09:51 AM	#7
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I know there are some Germans on here so they can answer it better.As I recall when I was stationed in Germany they did learn about the Holocaust in great detail in fact I am fairly sure that it in their laws that they must learn about it and the general effect of Hitler and all. It is also illegal to display a swastika or anything specifically related to the Nazi party.You can get arrested for it.I never even saw neo Nazis display any but they would use emblems in the old style writing used during that time and hide SS in some other name so the shirt they wear has lots of letters on it but the important part says something like "Deutschland SS". In Japan they don't really learn much factual I know this because a friends wife is Japanese she said that they basically have this stylized view of what Japan did during the war kind of middle groundish and idealized and pro Japanese.So it is up to the Japanese person themselves to learn the truth or follow a different line.There are a lot of Japanese that are very much aware of what happened including the atrocities at the same time there are many that have an idealized view. The rest of Asia was either victims of Japan or a colony of Great Britain or the US or the Neatherlands in which case they generally have the Allied view of the war.China most certainly learns a lot they being most victimized by the Japanese.In Chinese schools all children learn about the American Volunteer Group better known as the Flying Tigers because their actions saved China from being cut off.If you ask an American kid what the AVG or the Flying Tigers where they will have no idea in most cases ask a Chinese kid and they will know what you are talking about. Also a little known fact about China is that the Communists where much more determined to fight the Japanese than the Kuomintang where and they would go far out of their way to help American aircrews get back to their base even if it was 1,000 miles out of their way most American pilots felt that the general populace was better treated in Communist controlled areas of China.

01-21-13, 02:21 PM	#14
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Obviously, regarding the OP i can only speak of Germany I went to school in the 70ies and 80ies, and we learned of the 'Nazi' atrocities in a lot of courses and lectures, including visiting some of the concentration camps, and seeing original footage of the time, and of the liberating armies. Which certainly led to some questions regarding our elders .. it is certainly convenient to be born long after this time, and to think of oneself as an all-knowing superior being, and of surely having been a would-be hero against dictators, if only born in those times. You usually do NOT have the hindsight of the time you are living in. There are also a lot of memory sites, museums and graveyards, along with the holocaust memory sites, and also 'monuments of shame', if you like to call it that. I do not know though, how and if that much is being told today in Germany, about this time. And after all there is even more german history, than the 12 years of Hitler's dictatorship. The problem is also the allied re-education project in Germany, there was also a lot of propaganda in it, e.g. WW1 was just explained as the typical german way to declare war to the world and be generally the bad guy. If you look a bit closer it's a lot of smoke and mirrors though. Niall Ferguson's 'The pity of war' is a real eye-opener in that respect. WW1, mind you. When i look at what is done today in the name of 'freedom', 'helping' other nations or 'defense', and how the media report about atrocities internationally (atrocities and breaking of international law depending on who did it, otherwise it's the road to freedom), and how willingly people wage wars and join them for the 'right cause', i really do not think that people have learned much. IMHO the problem is that people die too soon - when they have learned enough about how things and propaganda really work they die, and the new kids are as dumb as those in generations before, and they make the same errors again. And again. How can you know as a kid, that your education is 'right' ? That said, i think there is still more thinking about the bad old times in Germany, than in most other countries of the world. I do not want to attack our english or american friends, but i seldomly see a national monument of shame about anything, in their special imperial histories. Thanks and greetings, Catfish

01-21-13, 02:26 PM	#15
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	Over here each state has it's own regulations about what is tought in school. The Nazi time was quiet a big part of our history lessons where I went to school. Even without that everybody knows about the Holocaust and war atrocities committed by German forces here, the topic is pretty omni present. TV shows, memorials etc. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.