Idea for stadimeter range estimates

[TorpX]

Those who use manual targeting, doubtless already know that long range stadimeter use is exceedingly difficult, bordering on utterly useless, due to the masts seeming to grow or shrink moment to moment. I was thinking that, maybe it would be possible to change the ship models by adding something like a black knob on the top of the highest mast(s), and thereby permit us to see them better. (Think of something along the lines of a flagpole knob in black.)

I know this will strike many as a very gamey idea, and may not be worth the trouble, but I thought I'd throw it out here.

[Treetop64]

Sorry, but not really a fan of this idea at all.

Getting accurate stadimeter ranges at extreme rages "should" be difficult, and "is" useless, because you wouldn't hope to get accurate solutions at those ranges anyway. You can get a general idea of what's going on, then further refine it as the target gets closer and become easier to observe. By the time the target is 2000-4000 yards away, then you can conduct a series of observations accurate enough to fire a torp.

Artificially adding a visual aid to make long range stadimeter settings accurate is obviously unrealistic. It's along the same lines as the hated old red triangle. We don't need that.

[TorpX]

I would agree, except that we should be able to see the masts much better than we do. I don't expect stadimeter estimates to be dead on, but they should be half way useful. Even at moderate ranges, if I watch them for awhile, I can see them grow and shrink. This is mostly a graphical element of the game; not something realistic or intended.

I should add that I'm not talking about a drastically larger knob either. Unless you are staring at it from 10 yards away, it would most likely not look especially large.

For anybody interested:

I currently run a 23" 16X9 Monitor at 1080p

Viewed from 20" away, the resolution required to match the "standard 20-20" human eye would be something like 9000X5893

This amounts to actual image output being about 4% of the ideal

At 32bit color (true color), this is 1697184000 bits, which is 202.32 megabytes *per frame*.

Link to thread:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=201121

This is from ColonelSandersLite. He has been using a technique where the width of the ship is used to calculate range instead of the height. Naturally, the stadimeter cannot be used for this. Why is he doing it this way? Only because of the lousy graphics problem. We know they did not do it this way; they used the stadimeter.

[TorpX]

Okay, it seems my idea is not going anywhere. I'll concede it is neither elegent nor ideal, but then not being able to make a fair range estimate on a plainly visible ship, on a clear day, isn't ideal either.

Has anyone found a solution to this problem? Is there some kind of graphic tweeks that will reduce it?

Any ideas...anything?

[Armistead]

I don't know a fix for it, except for max opticss and scaf.

[Hitman]

We know they did not do it this way; they used the stadimeter.

Yes but what they did is actually use another part of the ship's superstructure as reference, which is more accurate and will also be in the game - mastheads can not just be almost invisible, but also camouflaged with paint or shortened/lengthened on purpose.

[TorpX]

Perhaps Max Optics and/or using the funnel is the best availible way, but I was hoping someone had come up with something better. I used the alternate reference pt., but was not very happy with the results. 40% of the ship is hull down, 40% is invisible due to crappy graphics, so I'm trying to sight on the remaining 20% sliver as the horizon bounces around.


I would have thought the graphics software would be sophisticated enough to allow you to see what you are supposed to see.

[Bilge_Rat]

You don't need a mod, you can use basic trigonometry to determine range visually.

This is the theory behind the Stadimeter, namely that the visual height of a ship in the scope is a function of the range. The horizontal bars in the scope are there to allow you to calculate this.

I use this technique regularly in SH5, with Arclight's periscope mod, the formula at hi-power (6x) is:

mast height in meters x 200 / horizontal bars in scope = range in meters

I don't use this in SH4 since I rely on Nisgeis' Radar mod, but through tests, you should be able to determine the formula. For this to work, you need a recognition manual which gives you correct height to the reference point you use. SCAF or OTC should have this.

This technique was used by both German and U.S. skippers during WW2, both as an alternative and a double check on the Stadimeter.

Officer knows or can estimate the masthead height of the target in feet the number of horizontal divisions covered by the ship between its water line and masthead will be a measure of the range of the target. In the figure the target subtends 5 divisions in high power and 1 1/4 divisions in low power. It would obviously be impracticable to convert this value of angle to range at each periscope observation. The obvious solution is some form of precomputed graph or scale. We know that at a range of 1000 yards, 17 1/2 yards, or 52.5 feet will subtend an angle of 1 degree. Using this relation we can deduce the following formulas:

R(range) = (19.1 h / n) R(range) = (76.2 h / N)
R = range in yards
h = height in feet
n number scale divisions low power
N number scale divisions hi power

Plate III is a picture of one type of scale ("range omnimeter") which may be constructed. In the figure the masthead height of the target is 100 feet. The arrow of the sliding scale is set opposite the masthead height and the range is read opposite the number of divisions. In this case 1550 yards is read opposite 5 divisions high power and 1 1/4 divisions low power. Ranges obtained in this manner are commonly referred to as "telemeter ranges". Estimates of ranges should be made to the nearest 1/8 division.

http://hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm (chapter 5-2)

[TorpX]

The problem I'm having isn't math related or really related to technique; it's a graphic/visual problem. I can work out the formula for using the mast ht. to get range, but I can't see the mast tops consistently, unless I'm very close.

As a side note, I am not using the telemeter marks, as the game resolution issues make them squirrelly and CapnScurvy hasn't finished his OTC version for RFB.

[Bilge_Rat]

So I just setup a quick mission to check, using the default scope that comes with TMO 2.5 and SCAF_RSRDC_502, you can calculate range manually. The formula at Hi-Power is:

(reference height in feet) x 100 / horizontal bars in scope = range in yards

SCAF gives you a reference point on each ship with the height above the waterline to the reference point in feet. Use that point to calculate range. There seems to be no problem to ID ships or see masts out to 8,000 yds. I did not test farther out. Manual calculation gives me the range with an error of less than 5%.

[TorpX]

Well, I play RFB.

[BigWalleye]

Me, too. For now, it's the old normal approach method, period.

[Bilge_Rat]

yes, its more of a problem with RFB, there is no RFB SCAF version. OTC might work, but I have not checked it out. From what I remember, the RFB 2.0 recognition manual had similar info. There is a problem with RFB though, especially when used with RSRDC, many ships have the wrong info in the CFG file, so your stadimeter range will always be off. AFAIR, the Mogami, some of the carriers and escorts are off. SCAF gives you the correct info on all ships.

[Armistead]

RSRD has a few ships wrong with TMO as well. I remember attacking the Shoho and knew right away the stad was wrong. It actually made the attack fun figuring out range with contacts off.