So is this it!

[elanaiba]

I'm not sure I follow you Maddy, our programmers work wasn't really impacted by the volume of 3D work - which is done by other guys?!

On the other hand, our programmers had a lot more work to do to make sure SHV is more moddable than previous games. Not everything turned out ok, esp. with technology change things go to hell, but we had the best intentions to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to defend or portray SH5 as the greatest perfect planned project, it's bollocks. I'm just trying to be factual and share a few points about SH series evolution vs players expectations.

Now of course we have to realize that if SH5 would have been the perfect game / sim and word of mouth of the early adopters / reviews would have been great, even those not buying because of the "only type VII" issue may have been convinced. Add the DRM debacle on top of that, and you have more reasons than not to keep on the fence

[HundertzehnGustav]

have to agree there for a moment.

• no type 9, but a darn near perfect type 7 = sit on the fence, interested, and nervous.

• Good hope that a Type 9 and all the extras of a Type 9 can be added (mod or buy) later = SH V bought without hesitation.

DRM = turn around and go back to SHIII, no matter what SH V is or could be.

[Julhelm]

Yeah, the DRM scheme really hurt the game. I can understand putting it on something like Asscreed 2 which pirates will pirate but not a niche game like SH5.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

On the other hand, our programmers had a lot more work to do to make sure SHV is more moddable than previous games. Not everything turned out ok, esp. with technology change things go to hell, but we had the best intentions to do so.

Deh, stii vorba aia... Iadul e pavat cu bune intentii. (Romanian proverb)

In terms of moddability, the series went downhill since SH3.

SH3 had a very active modding community because it could be easily modded by the guy with average computer skills. It still has the highest number of mods and supermods of the franchise, and this has nothing to do with it being the oldest. SH4 was a setback with this regard, with fewer modders involved and fewer supermods.

As for SH5, yes, it may be more moddable than the previous games, as you say, but modding its core (I don't mean sounds and visuals) is only accessible to the most technically competent people, skilled with Python and machine code. And this special breed of modders is not very common to any gaming community. The moment you decided to get into scripts, you turned away most of the modders that worked miracles with the previous installments.

For the latest game in the series, it was a lifesaver having TDW and Trevally obstinately committed to SH5, else the game would have been unplayable, the way Ubi pushed it on the market. Just remember the half-baked campaign it came with, and the fact that you hadn't even programmed a rudder control in the initial interface.

You say: Not everything turned out ok, esp. with technology change things go to hell...

True! Any technology change should have in mind the skills of the public it addresses. It is my personal opinion that, had you decided to stick with the technology of SH3&4, improve it and incorporate the features demanded by the community in the already tested (and tweaked) engine, the end result would have been the masterpiece we all awaited. And the modding community would have thrived as well.

Best regards,

dcb

[elanaiba]

Originally Posted by dcb

Deh, stii vorba aia... Iadul e pavat cu bune intentii. (Romanian proverb)

In terms of moddability, the series went downhill since SH3.

SH3 had a very active modding community because it could be easily modded by the guy with average computer skills. It still has the highest number of mods and supermods of the franchise, and this has nothing to do with it being the oldest. SH4 was a setback with this regard, with fewer modders involved and fewer supermods.

As for SH5, yes, it may be more moddable than the previous games, as you say, but modding its core (I don't mean sounds and visuals) is only accessible to the most technically competent people, skilled with Python and machine code. And this special breed of modders is not very common to any gaming community. The moment you decided to get into scripts, you turned away most of the modders that worked miracles with the previous installments.

For the latest game in the series, it was a lifesaver having TDW and Trevally obstinately committed to SH5, else the game would have been unplayable, the way Ubi pushed it on the market. Just remember the half-baked campaign it came with, and the fact that you hadn't even programmed a rudder control in the initial interface.

You say: Not everything turned out ok, esp. with technology change things go to hell...

True! Any technology change should have in mind the skills of the public it addresses. It is my personal opinion that, had you decided to stick with the technology of SH3&4, improve it and incorporate the features demanded by the community in the already tested (and tweaked) engine, the end result would have been the masterpiece we all awaited. And the modding community would have thrived as well.

Best regards,

dcb

Dan, I can't agree here.

I think you're confusing modability (the technical part of the game that allows mods) with modding - the extent to which a game is modded or popular with modders.

Modability went downhill from SH3 to 4 probably because:
-in general less players were interested in SH4 (US boats) than in SH3
-many people were spent after modding the hell out of 3
-modding SH4 (or 5) meant starting much from scratch, which is hard to justify to yourself after spending months, years of your life on the previous game

There are still a bunch of great mods available for SH4 and have always been, but many people have no interest in them. And there's also a bunch of people that will say that "with SH3 + mods they have no need for SH4/5". Of course, part of the failure in the communication plan of Ubisoft is that we didn't convince these people otherwise. Now SH4 was a project that was also buggy, but so was 3! People just forgive a lot when thinking of SH3, as it came after the long hiatus from SH2 - which was generally considered not so good - and brought a great technology step forward!

Now, we can discuss technology a lot but anyone would be hard pressed to prove how using hex editing and 3rd party built programs (that you have to wait for to be developed) is somehow more accessible than simple scripting? Show me what mods were done for SH3 that can't be done for 5 ... except ships hacking, I can't think of any.

Hell, I know at least one person that got the SH3 internal tools from me and worked with them ... most had to rely on excellent tools that were built by other people. With SH5 - you got them in the release version!

There are some technology issues with SH5 mods, but in general, it was the same for 3! It's just that with a less successful product and the huge base that SH3 already offers, there's less drive to work on it.

However, I see a very active forum of SH5 modders, some great work already done and some very happy players. I'd just say people THINK its not as modable ?!

Now, the technology changed was needed as the old one was buggy, original code writers were gone, code was not extensible. Sure it could have been done much better, and in general its hard to defend SH5 technology as being awesome and well done ... but some if it truly is!

Also, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is not strictly Romanian

Hope you don't get me wrong and I might sound a little aggressive, that's not the intention, I'm just going after some facts and misconceptions. We can always have a beer and chat. Remember I'm no longer in the Ubi office / email, though.

Dan

[dcb]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

Hope you don't get me wrong and I might sound a little aggressive, that's not the intention, I'm just going after some facts and misconceptions. We can have always a beer and chat. Remember I'm no longer in the Ubi office / email, though.

No offense taken, indeed, especially not from a friend. I think we both understand each other's point of view, and this is the best about it. I'm all for the beer and chat.

And BTW, I'm no longer a journalist either

Restul, in PM.


Edited because of PM box full

Voiam sa-ti trimit PM cu datele mele de contact, ca sa ne mai auzim/vedem si noi, dar ai casuta plina. In acest caz, nu prea stiu cum sa dau de tine. Oricum, mobilul si emailul meu personal au ramas aceleasi. Dc vrei, da-mi tu in PM noile coordonate (un email, eventual), ca altfel nu stiu cum sa dau de tine.
Spor in toate!

[HundertzehnGustav]

so what we dont need is SHO

we need a long hiatus from SHIII because SHIII still undermines more modern subsims.

see my sig.
XD

don't hold your breath for that to happen.
dude i got SHIII in '06. left the game in 09. started again in late 12, and it still rocks my boat.
that is how BIG SHIII is. Or has become.
*very very very large grin*

[Sonarman]

Not sure if any of you saw this post on the Unity forums a while back but subsim super modder Hans Witteman had a very interesting response to his team's mooted subsim project...

"Hi Hans,

My main question for you is there a business plan and any available funding for this project?

I know the original lead programmer and designer, Bill Becker, of the very first Silent Hunter and he is available (around 25 years of experience and about your age). The lead artist is also a good friend of ours but he's mostly tied up with a 9 to 5 job but certainly available for your reference. I am also an expert in Unity, with 20 years professional game experience (primarily programming) and I'm currently working on an underwater game and I could answer most technical questions you have. We both come from a heavy simulations background, myself having worked on Gunship 2000 and F-15 Strike Eagle III back in the day, and Bill has worked on a ridiculous number of simulation titles as that is his specialty.

I went through most of your site and can tell that you are extremely passionate and serious about this project. If you can let us know more about your background (commercial projects are of greatest interest) and your team members we could probably put together quite a powerful team. We have access to many of the developers from the old MicroProse Software days, including business development. For a AAA game you need serious resources in business, marketing and distribution so we want to make sure you have the whole picture covered and how we might best work together."

Don Goddard


Presumably the artist of which they speak is the legendary Kim Biscoe who worked on Pirates! Gold, Silent Service II, Great Naval Battles 1,2,3 &4, Silent Hunter, Silent Hunter II and on the radar & sonar screens of Destroyer Command as well as many other sims.The word "Kickstarter" springs to mind... time to put our money where our mouth is?

And if not for a subsim project I wish these guys would at least tie up with Ed Fletcher for his (programming almost complete) reboot of TF1942+1942PAW.

[elanaiba]

Nice!

I grew up with Microprose sims as a kid ... F-19 Stealth Fighter anyone? Made general in F-15 Strike Eagle II, played the hell out of F-117 and then I discovered Falcon 3 and the rest is history.

The demise of the western simulation developers was a great blow to this industry and to us players. One can argue that the East Europe developers have brought great advances in simulation, technology ... but to me nothing can touch the immersion, fun and overall experience of the old breed.

Any serious sim from the "old" guys would instantly have my "buy" button clicked.

[HertogJan]

Originally Posted by Sonarman

And if not for a subsim project I wish these guys would at least tie up with Ed Fletcher for his (programming almost complete) reboot of TF1942+1942PAW.

Oooh boy,

Those where the day's, I remember having to make a boot disk just to be able to get 1942PAW to run with mouse and joystick.

Man I loved that game and tried to play it over on freegamesempire.
IF they are giving new life to that game I'll most definitely buy it

[AOTD_MadMax]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

I'm not sure I follow you Maddy, our programmers work wasn't really impacted by the volume of 3D work - which is done by other guys?!

On the other hand, our programmers had a lot more work to do to make sure SHV is more moddable than previous games. Not everything turned out ok, esp. with technology change things go to hell, but we had the best intentions to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to defend or portray SH5 as the greatest perfect planned project, it's bollocks. I'm just trying to be factual and share a few points about SH series evolution vs players expectations.

Now of course we have to realize that if SH5 would have been the perfect game / sim and word of mouth of the early adopters / reviews would have been great, even those not buying because of the "only type VII" issue may have been convinced. Add the DRM debacle on top of that, and you have more reasons than not to keep on the fence

Hi Dan,

I'm a businessman and I work in a marketing department, and I know exactly how things are going.

There is a budget for a project and if the budget is used up, it will either be published by measures quickly, or it is set.

The decision was made ​​in favor of a publication of SH5.
The result of this decision is an unfinished SH5 as we all know.

Now, where is the cause?

Clearly in the distribution of resources.
I remember exactly how Ubisoft pushed the GWXTeam to quit GWX 4.0 because GWX4.0 already had contents which should come in SH5.

Instead of using the skills of modders so as to keep the budget lean, even modding was suppressed.

Tomi99 had already much better prepared detailed diesel interiors than they are in SH5.
The modders were already so at another stage of evolution and Ubi ran after.
Rather than take advantage of the use of the well-built models of the modder, Ubi built his own far worse models.
The budget shrank and for the things you can not see, there was no more money.
This includes the Ki, nonfunctional Magnetpistol and many other things which do not work in SH5.

Much money was spent for the optics in order for great video clips to attract more customers but the game play was all into the back.

The entire budget for the models you could have saved because they were present almost all in a better shape.
Then SH5 would also have been a success.
Today, outsourcing is in any industry the key for success and the solution for projects with a slim budget.

Regards

Maddy

[elanaiba]

Originally Posted by AOTD_MadMax

I remember exactly how Ubisoft pushed the GWXTeam to quit GWX 4.0 because GWX4.0 already had contents which should come in SH5.

?!?!?!?!?! When did they do that? How did they do that?!

[SNAKE1937]

I remember when the GW team posted that they would not be fixing SH4.

A sad day, as I loved what they did with SH3 ( still my favorate SH game).

What ever happen to all of that talent?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by SNAKE1937

What ever happen to all of that talent?

Some of it has moved on to other things. Some of it is still around, but working individually. Some of it is even working with former "opponents" to improve the gaming experience for all of it. There are new and extremely talented teams working on various games, including SH3. I only hope someday they'll apply that same energy to SH4 and SH5. What work is being done on those games is laudable, but not enough. This is not due to lack of talent in the people working on them, but in the lack of people working on them.