[WIP] Historical Guns Specs

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

so, for beginning we need two different missions (I think so) -

1. the sub with two/three AA-guns on board and several different enemy planes

2. the enemy task-force and several different our and friendly planes

weather conditions, time of day etc. we can change in the mission's settings window before mission start..

For a start, I think we need still to answer the following questions:

1. is the Max error angle (Sim.cfg) applied to player's guns, or not?
2. are the two gun-specific Trav and Elev tolerance affecting aiming accuracy?
3. if yes, how are they combined with the above Max error angle setting (multiplied, adde, etc.)?

By saying that we need to answer these questions, I mean that we got to remove any possible doubt about them. We have already discussed them, but so far we have only unconfirmed hypothesis

With this premise in mind, I am proposing the following method:

• creating a basic mission with standard settings and just an U-boat, a ship and an enemy airplane: the more stuff we put in it, the more the unpredictable interactions between various elements, whereas we want to do things as simple as possible.
• changing just one single setting at a time, no matter if it is a mission related parameter or a gun setting.
• answering just one question at a time: again it will make things a lot easier.
• ignoring any realism consideration: right now we should be only concerned about the game mechanism. Finetuning it will be the second (...or third ) step.

If you agree with this method, I would like to find an answer to the first question:

is the Max error angle (Sim.cfg) applied to player's guns, or not?

for doing it we need for the above mentioned mission (an U-boat with a single Flak and an airplane without bombs), IRAI, and a set of modifications of the 'Max error angle' parameter. Here's the plan of our tests:

• test 1: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 0.00 test mod (AA Max error angle=0)
• test 2: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 2.25 test mod
• test 3: SH5 + IRAI (AA Max error angle=4.5, this is our "blank" that any other test will be copared with)
• test 4: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 6.75 test mod
• test 5: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 9.00 test mod

If our assumption (that the AA Max error angle is not affecting our Flaks) was true, we would expect the precision of our AI gunners not to change from a test to another test. On the contrary, if we were wrong, their precision should decrease from test 1 to test 5

How to "measure" and report the results of our tests? Two ways come to my mind; we can:

• adopt a subjective method by expressing the performance of our gunner in comparison the blank test (much worse, worse, slightly worse, slightly better, better, much better)

or (preferably) we can:

• adopt a numeric reporting: number of salvos required for downing the plane, or times the plane dived to attack us before it got shot down, or (even better) number of bullets left after downing it. In order to make things even easier, I think I will give the plane abundance of harmless dummy shells, and I will also increase our ammo storage.

What do you think? Can I go on preparing the mission and the test mods?

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

is the Max error angle (Sim.cfg) applied to player's guns, or not?

I'm still thinking not, because -

Originally Posted by gap

How to "measure" and report the results of our tests? Two ways come to my mind; we can:

I think we should use both types of reports..
but what is accepted as the standard in the first variant?

Originally Posted by gap

What do you think? Can I go on preparing the mission and the test mods?

Let's do it

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

I'm still thinking not, because...

So do I, but better making sure of it

Originally Posted by volodya61

I think we should use both types of reports..
but what is accepted as the standard in the first variant?

test 3 (SH5 + IRAI)

Originally Posted by volodya61

Let's do it

I am on it: just give me half an hour

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

Here's the plan of our tests:

• test 1: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 0.00 test mod (AA Max error angle=0)
• test 2: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 2.25 test mod
• test 3: SH5 + IRAI (AA Max error angle=4.5, this is our "blank" that any other test will be copared with)
• test 4: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 6.75 test mod
• test 5: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 9.00 test mod

I believe that we need to make adjustments to the plan:

test: SH5 + NewUis + IRAI

The thought is: we can't order - "fire at will" without an interface.. in the stock game we able to designate target using binoculars only..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

[/LIST]I believe that we need to make adjustments to the plan:

test: SH5 + NewUis + IRAI

The thought is: we can't order - "fire at will" without an interface.. in the stock game we able to designate target using binoculars only..

Yes indeed: I didn't make any mention to the use of an UI mod because I thought it was implicit

I never actually played with the stock UI

P.S: your suggestion arrived just at the right moment: the test mission is ready, but after a first test (Mew UIs enabled), crew refuses to fire against the plane
I will try changing the crew doctrine to aggressive, and in case of failure my stubborn gunner will become food for sharks

[gap]

I had for the first time a closer look at our gunner in action in what would be our test #3 (SH5 + NEW UIs + IRAI) and man, is he stupid!

I think he didn't score any hit, and when I finally resolved to get rid of the Hurricane by myself, I realized that he had already finished all my ammunition

...wait, I will try raising the veterancy level to elite and let's see what will happen

[volodya61]

Make sure that the order - "fire at will" is enabled..
Sometimes I had to repeatedly switch from order "fire at will" to order "hold fire"..
And sometimes they didn't open fire for some strange reason..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

Make sure that the order - "fire at will" is enabled..
Sometimes I had to repeatedly switch from order "fire at will" to order "hold fire"..
And sometimes they didn't open fire for some strange reason..

Yes, ordering battlestations helps as well

Anyway, right now the problem is that even at at close range and with veterancy level set to "elite", my gunner can't score a single hit.

Either crew ranking isn't applied in my custom mission, or a single C/30 mounted on the aft deck (so is equipped the VIIA U-boat that I've picked for the mission) is not very effective with stock settings.

In the circumstances, I think it will be pointless to carry on test #4 and #5. You can download the mission from this link:

http://rapidshare.com/files/25305789...ion%20%231.rar

JSGME ready. Missions settings:

date and hour: 01/01/1940 12:00
clouds: none
fog: none
wind speed: 5 m/s
Wind heading: N

sub veterancy level: elite
sub doctrine: aggressive
aircraft veterancy level: competent
aircraft doctrine: aggressive

I think you can do the changes to Sim.cfg required for the planned test by yourself. Note that there are two Max error angle settings. Only one gets applied to AA guns:

[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.4 ;[0,1]
Waves attenuation=0.65 ;>=0

[AI Cannons]
;The degrees at which the AI could be off when aiming guns at you
Max error angle=4.5 ;[deg] was 3, increased 33%
Max fire range=7000 ;[m] was 6000
Max fire wait=12 ;[s]

[AI AA guns]
;The degrees at which the AI could be off when aiming guns at airplanes
Max error angle=4.5 ;[deg] <= THIS ONE
Max fire range=3500 ;[m] was 1500
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

Besides the mods required for our tests, I suggest you to enable the mod you have created for increasing Flak's ammo (make sure not to make any other change than this one). The one Flak that you will need to edit is the C/30 (20mm_C30 in Objects/Guns folder)
The one Hurricane I've put in mission cannot harm that much your U-boat, so I left its armaments unchanged.
Before entering in mission, make sure to select the VIIA (if you select the VIIB, you won't get any Flak aboard your boat). Also make sure to adopt the same firing ordesr for all of your tests the tests (I used attack at close range / closing targets, with battlestations activated). That's all

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

That's all

That's all folks ©

I will report within an hour.. maybe two..

PS: I'm not so silly for such detailed instructions

[volodya61]

news.. good or bad? don't know exactly..

Mission Impossible ©

test 1: SH5 + NewUIs + IRAI + Sim.cfg ErrAng=0.00 & 20mm_C30.sim Ammo=1200

clouds: none
fog: none
wind speed: 0 m/s

sub speed: All Stop & Ahead Slow
battlestations: activated
range: close & medium

EDIT: total: four tests - /All Stop+close/ & /All Stop+medium/ & /Ahead Slow+close/ & /Ahead Slow+medium/

no one hit.. at all..

the other tests didn't hold.. I see no reason..
previous tests (in the campaign) I did on a boat 7C with one C38-twin.. there were hits.. often..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

That's all folks ©

I will report within an hour.. maybe two..

PS: I'm not so silly for such detailed instructions

Sorry mate,

I used to practice in a laboratory, back in the days I was an university student of biology. Most of what I learned in those years is the importance of following a written method and to record thoroughly even the silliest experiment. Call it an occupational disease

[THE_MASK]

I looked at the stuka in goblin . It uses 5000 AP shells . Is the plane shells too powerful or something . Change them to AA .

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

news.. good or bad? don't know exactly..

Mission Impossible ©

test 1: SH5 + NewUIs + IRAI + Sim.cfg ErrAng=0.00 & 20mm_C30.sim Ammo=1200

clouds: none
fog: none
wind speed: 0 m/s

sub speed: All Stop & Ahead Slow
battlestations: activated
range: close & medium

EDIT: total: four tests - /All Stop+close/ & /All Stop+medium/ & /Ahead Slow+close/ & /Ahead Slow+medium/

no one hit.. at all..

the other tests didn't hold.. I see no reason..
previous tests (in the campaign) I did on a boat 7C with one C38-twin.. there were hits.. often..

Okay, let's do some tests with the C/38 twin, then.

Tomorrow I will do the needed changes to our mission. I need to rest now

[gap]

Originally Posted by sober

I looked at the stuka in goblin . It uses 5000 AP shells . Is the plane shells too powerful or something . Change them to AA .

Thank you for the headup sober. I haven't looked into the planes yet, but they are in the todo list of this mod

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

Sorry mate,

I used to practice in a laboratory, back in the days I was an university student of biology. Most of what I learned in those years is the importance of following a written method and to record thoroughly even the silliest experiment. Call it an occupational disease

It's OK..
I can forget or confuse anything, but with your instructions that's not possible..

Originally Posted by gap

Okay, let's do some tests with the C/38 twin, then.

Tomorrow I will do the needed changes to our mission. I need to rest now

OK.. see you tomorrow..