So is this it! - Page 3

Red October1984 · 01-06-13, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Cool. I'm looking forward to it, but with appropriate patience. I only wish I had the skills to contribute to something like this.

Don't I know that feeling...I wish I could help out the modders....But sadly...I do not know how.

Hawk66 · 01-06-13, 02:01 PM

I'm not a WWII-sub fan or player (although I've enjoyed the Silent Service games from Microprose a lot in my childhood) - but it's interesting that the WWII sub genre seems to face a similar problem like the modern sub genre (a la Dangerous Waters) in terms of discontinuity a couple of years ago - although the size of the community for WWII sub sims is much larger.

Bilge_Rat · 01-07-13, 01:28 PM

I dont see the use of rehashing the history of the SH series or engaging into yet another UBI-bash thread. Of course the SH series is dead, but you can't say it's all UBI's fault, the consumer has to bear part of the blame.

We have always known Ubisoft is in the market to make money, well guess what?, that's how the free market system works, you make a profit or you go bankrupt.

Wargames are a niche market and subsims are in an even smaller niche. According to UBI's own figures, the entire SH series from SH1 to SH5 sold 1,500,000 units which sounds like a lot until you find out that Assassin's Creed 3 alone sold 7,000,000 units in just the FIRST MONTH.

Major publishers are becoming like major film studios, just looking for the next blockbuster. At least we should give UBI credit for sticking with the SH series instead of just bailing out of the sim market like every other major publisher back in 1999-2000.

Yes, the SH series was never hard core enough for some, but UBI never hid the fact that they were aiming for a subsim-lite that was fun to play. It is easy to blame UBI for not putting out a ultra realistic sub simulation, but they never said that was their goal.

A lot of people say the SH series started to go downhill with SH4. Well guess what, SH4 fully patched worked great and fully modded is now one of the finest subsims around. I still play it regularly.

A lot of people tore apart SH5 and refused to buy it. I bought it, played it, looked under the hood and with all the mods that have come out, it could soon rival SH3/4. There were a lot of realism improvements/features that were packed into SH5.

Were SH4 and 5 perfect? Of course not, but when you refuse to buy a subsim, the message you are sending is not: "we want a ultra-realistic subsim", it is rather "there is no market for this subsim crap, make another Assassin's Creed instead".

A lot of people were secretly hoping that UBI would drop the SH series so that another developper would rush in to fill the void. Well, UBI stopped all work on SH5 almost 3 years ago, but I don't see a rush of new ultra-realistic subsims being developped. As the old saying goes: "be careful what you wish for, it may come true."

Sandman_28054 · 01-07-13, 04:02 PM

I'll say this: I'm glad my son bought me this for Christmas this year. If I would have bought it like I originally intended to, I'd be extremely disappointed.

Nexus7 · 01-07-13, 05:28 PM

Assassins Creed? Sure.

And about MMO games ?

About WoT (march 2012): World of Tanks has 20 million registered users, making double-digit million profits monthly

Why should a tank simulator be extremely more appetible than a sub simulator ?

elanaiba · 01-07-13, 05:57 PM

I really don't want to get into this but have you played World of Tanks - since you're calling it a simulator?

Bilge_Rat · 01-07-13, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

I really don't want to get into this .....

You know you want to though. NDAs are such a pain...

Red October1984 · 01-07-13, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

You know you want to though. NDAs are such a pain...

Everybody loves a good "This game is/isn't a simulation" argument!

LET'S DO IT!!!!

PL_Andrev · 01-08-13, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Assassins Creed? Sure.

And about MMO games ?

About WoT (march 2012): World of Tanks has 20 million registered users, making double-digit million profits monthly

Why should a tank simulator be extremely more appetible than a sub simulator ?

People love:
- free games, (SH series is not for free)
- simple games, (ok, simple mode available here)
- many units playable game, (just German or US units, right?)
- multiplayer games, (no counterfight with humans)
Just a fresh look is needed. Since SH3 UBI has no idea to develop Destroyer Command 2 although community sign it many times. Now we will have free available navy games: World of Warships (in development) and WarThunder (in development, only planes available to play).

BigBANGtheory · 01-08-13, 06:34 AM

What people want is quality and variety at an affordable level.

Ubisofts business model is to find and recycle a winning formula with minimal investment/risk.

...and so the deadlock between publisher and consumer continues.

So what you need is a developer prepared to demonstrate quality and thus generate a market prepared to pay for continued development. This model has proven to work with DCS which btw isn't without its faults, but they are tolerated due to the immense quality in other areas.

I personally think SH5 had (still has) the potential for this had development continued for another 2yrs, which obviously required consumer backing. The key to getting that backing is communication and trust, again a succesful trait of the DCS series.

que elanaiba's kickstarter campaign....

01-08-13, 01:56 PM

Maybe Ubi is out of the WWII SubSim market. Maybe not.

So SHO might be a way to increase interest in and draw more people to a future project?

No source nor SDK has ever been released.
No objections to what Modders do with files but alot of inclusions based on past mods and modders work and suggestions.
No major objections from modders about those inclusions or suggestions.

There is a base for co-operation between Ubi and Modders.
There's even been rumors/past examples of such a co-op.

Now, since Ubi wants/needs to make money?
And We want more Units that look as good as the base Units. (as a start)
The 3d modelers build them, send them to Ubi for conversion to GR2 format, then have the modders do the sim and other work.
The modders send them back and Ubi can make a few bucks selling an expansion pack.

Say this works out and We all stand behind it and fork out a few bucks to buy this expansion. (I know I would)

A trust may be built that could lead to some access to source that would allow the Modder programers to correct problems that Ubi is not going to correct otherwise.

Again, Ubi needs a way to make money so We buy the fixes from them.

I see it like this.......
It's that way or no way.

As someone that owns his own business?
If I don't make money? I don't do any work for you.

My Modding work is my hobby and I never make money off of it.
I'd gladly do free work for Ubi on an SH5 expansion/bug fix given a chance.

It's time to quit complaining and start makeing offers to get what We want.

All I want is a chance to help Ubi make money while I get the results that so many here want.

Sailor Steve · 01-08-13, 09:12 PM

That is a brilliant plan. If it can be made to work, I'll buy it.

Promise.

BigBANGtheory · 01-09-13, 06:25 AM

It would be interesting if Blue Byte ran this as a project for Ubisoft, then they would have 2 revenue streams from the franchise with minimal effort on their part.

They would also split the risk between a browser based game and a proper PC sim.

Then if the market grows to a sufficient size you have a business case for developing a more modern subsim.

I suspect though Ubisoft HQ is wrapped up in assessing purchasing assets and IP from the demise of THQ atm.

...but yes in principle sim players should accept the true cost of continued development, and sim developers need to accept community participation if they want success.

01-09-13, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That is a brilliant plan. If it can be made to work, I'll buy it.

Promise.

It was only me thinking out loud. So it's more like a gropeing for anything.
It would be 'a brilliant plan' IF someone from Ubi responded.
(Which I will not be holding my breath on)

This Community has all the skills, talent, knowledge, and will power any Game Company should be fighting to embrace.
I won't even mention how professional everyone here is.
(Oh Crap! I did anyway

)

Sailor Steve · 01-09-13, 06:13 PM

How very unprofessional of you.

01-07-13, 01:28 PM	#33
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,856 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	I dont see the use of rehashing the history of the SH series or engaging into yet another UBI-bash thread. Of course the SH series is dead, but you can't say it's all UBI's fault, the consumer has to bear part of the blame. We have always known Ubisoft is in the market to make money, well guess what?, that's how the free market system works, you make a profit or you go bankrupt. Wargames are a niche market and subsims are in an even smaller niche. According to UBI's own figures, the entire SH series from SH1 to SH5 sold 1,500,000 units which sounds like a lot until you find out that Assassin's Creed 3 alone sold 7,000,000 units in just the FIRST MONTH. Major publishers are becoming like major film studios, just looking for the next blockbuster. At least we should give UBI credit for sticking with the SH series instead of just bailing out of the sim market like every other major publisher back in 1999-2000. Yes, the SH series was never hard core enough for some, but UBI never hid the fact that they were aiming for a subsim-lite that was fun to play. It is easy to blame UBI for not putting out a ultra realistic sub simulation, but they never said that was their goal. A lot of people say the SH series started to go downhill with SH4. Well guess what, SH4 fully patched worked great and fully modded is now one of the finest subsims around. I still play it regularly. A lot of people tore apart SH5 and refused to buy it. I bought it, played it, looked under the hood and with all the mods that have come out, it could soon rival SH3/4. There were a lot of realism improvements/features that were packed into SH5. Were SH4 and 5 perfect? Of course not, but when you refuse to buy a subsim, the message you are sending is not: "we want a ultra-realistic subsim", it is rather "there is no market for this subsim crap, make another Assassin's Creed instead". A lot of people were secretly hoping that UBI would drop the SH series so that another developper would rush in to fill the void. Well, UBI stopped all work on SH5 almost 3 years ago, but I don't see a rush of new ultra-realistic subsims being developped. As the old saying goes: "be careful what you wish for, it may come true." __________________

01-07-13, 05:28 PM	#35
Nexus7 Commander Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 469 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Assassins Creed? Sure. And about MMO games ? About WoT (march 2012): World of Tanks has 20 million registered users, making double-digit million profits monthly Why should a tank simulator be extremely more appetible than a sub simulator ? __________________ If you are going through hell... keep going (Winston Churchill)

01-07-13, 05:57 PM	#36
elanaiba Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,058 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 3	I really don't want to get into this but have you played World of Tanks - since you're calling it a simulator? __________________ With strength I burn...

01-08-13, 09:12 PM	#42
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	That is a brilliant plan. If it can be made to work, I'll buy it. Promise. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

01-09-13, 06:13 PM	#45
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	How very unprofessional of you. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

01-06-13, 02:01 PM	#32
Hawk66 Commodore Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 609 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	I'm not a WWII-sub fan or player (although I've enjoyed the Silent Service games from Microprose a lot in my childhood) - but it's interesting that the WWII sub genre seems to face a similar problem like the modern sub genre (a la Dangerous Waters) in terms of discontinuity a couple of years ago - although the size of the community for WWII sub sims is much larger.

01-07-13, 04:02 PM	#34
Sandman_28054 Captain Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 547 Downloads: 279 Uploads: 0	I'll say this: I'm glad my son bought me this for Christmas this year. If I would have bought it like I originally intended to, I'd be extremely disappointed.

01-08-13, 06:34 AM	#40
BigBANGtheory Officer Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: British Waters Posts: 243 Downloads: 98 Uploads: 0	What people want is quality and variety at an affordable level. Ubisofts business model is to find and recycle a winning formula with minimal investment/risk. ...and so the deadlock between publisher and consumer continues. So what you need is a developer prepared to demonstrate quality and thus generate a market prepared to pay for continued development. This model has proven to work with DCS which btw isn't without its faults, but they are tolerated due to the immense quality in other areas. I personally think SH5 had (still has) the potential for this had development continued for another 2yrs, which obviously required consumer backing. The key to getting that backing is communication and trust, again a succesful trait of the DCS series. que elanaiba's kickstarter campaign....

01-08-13, 01:56 PM	#41
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Maybe Ubi is out of the WWII SubSim market. Maybe not. So SHO might be a way to increase interest in and draw more people to a future project? No source nor SDK has ever been released. No objections to what Modders do with files but alot of inclusions based on past mods and modders work and suggestions. No major objections from modders about those inclusions or suggestions. There is a base for co-operation between Ubi and Modders. There's even been rumors/past examples of such a co-op. Now, since Ubi wants/needs to make money? And We want more Units that look as good as the base Units. (as a start) The 3d modelers build them, send them to Ubi for conversion to GR2 format, then have the modders do the sim and other work. The modders send them back and Ubi can make a few bucks selling an expansion pack. Say this works out and We all stand behind it and fork out a few bucks to buy this expansion. (I know I would) A trust may be built that could lead to some access to source that would allow the Modder programers to correct problems that Ubi is not going to correct otherwise. Again, Ubi needs a way to make money so We buy the fixes from them. I see it like this....... It's that way or no way. As someone that owns his own business? If I don't make money? I don't do any work for you. My Modding work is my hobby and I never make money off of it. I'd gladly do free work for Ubi on an SH5 expansion/bug fix given a chance. It's time to quit complaining and start makeing offers to get what We want. All I want is a chance to help Ubi make money while I get the results that so many here want.

01-09-13, 06:25 AM	#43
BigBANGtheory Officer Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: British Waters Posts: 243 Downloads: 98 Uploads: 0	It would be interesting if Blue Byte ran this as a project for Ubisoft, then they would have 2 revenue streams from the franchise with minimal effort on their part. They would also split the risk between a browser based game and a proper PC sim. Then if the market grows to a sufficient size you have a business case for developing a more modern subsim. I suspect though Ubisoft HQ is wrapped up in assessing purchasing assets and IP from the demise of THQ atm. ...but yes in principle sim players should accept the true cost of continued development, and sim developers need to accept community participation if they want success.