German film looks at ties between Rommel and Hitler

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Oberon,

you are right and I agree with what you say, and still - you took note that in your first asnwers you talked of "guilt and compliance", and I immediately corrected that and reminded you that I called it "responsibility and obedience". It is not always easy to fully see what long-range consequences our decisions and actions have or have not, and by becoming a reality what new new consequences this might trigger. And the amount of moral guilt one has to accept for being obedient, gets heavier or lighter due to the individual characteristics and variables the person is in. For the Germans, you could for example ask what would have happened if a majority of them would not have complied with the Nazis's rules, and would have revolted. I think that while most Nazis in Europe were Germans and Austrians, not all Germans and Austrians were Nazis. Believing Nazis probably only formed a minority, meaning: a group smaller than 50%, how many there actually were, we will never know. Maybe as little as 10% only. However, those accepting to nevertheless play ball and follow rules and look the other way, although they may not have been Nazis and may not have pulled a trigger still helped by that that the Nazis could secure their power. The silent majority that sat put and tolerated the darkness during the war, as well as those desperate workers before 39 who fell for the Nazi's paroles because Hitler indeed brought them back into work and put money and bread and butter on their home's kitchentables, have to accept that by doing so they made decisions that had effects - and that they share a responsibility for this.

We all need to make choices, almost everyday. And we are responsible for our decisions. Maybe I have a somewhat radical view there, put I stick to it: the freedom to chose between decisions, you always have. Maybe your choice will get you killed, but still, the choice is yours, and if your choice means you get killed, you have freedom that way, then.

On the German spirit that you summarised as "my nation, right or wrong", you still see that even in the wars of today, don't you, so it is not typically a German thing, nor was it exclusively in that era only.

I see where you're coming from, and I think that was where the Nazis were at their most devious, if the German people had seen them in the full light of day at the start, they'd have struggled to get into power, but as it was it was clever propaganda and machinations that presented the German people (and Austrian for that matter) with...dare I say it...'Hope' and 'Change' which are perhaps two of the more powerful words in the English language when it comes to motivating a populace. They promised a lot, and even delivered some of it, fancy schemes such as 'Kraft der Freude', the HJ, the Autobahns, which in hindsight are recognisable as either military preparation or bread and circuses, but at the time were gifts from a regime which, if you weren't politically minded and didn't fall into one of the undesirable categories, gave you a job, gave you money and gave you hope for a better future for a Germany which had been crushed in WWI, betrayed by its bureaucracy and buried under a decade of mismanagement and corruption. With all that glittering promise, it's little wonder that Hitler was, to many, the best thing since sliced bread (which was now affordable without having to use a wheelbarrow of paper notes).
It's only with hindsight that we hold those people responsible for making a wrong decision, if the Nazis had won the war, then this conversation would be completely different.

But I do see where you're coming from, and it's not that radical a view, the concept of free will dove-tails nicely into having a responsibility for ones decisions, however the concept does not always work equally across the board, sometimes things occur that are not intended consequences of your actions. For example, if you were to walk down a street at night and be mugged, would you hold responsibility for walking down that street at night? Certainly there are actions one can take to limit such occurrences, for example if the street is a known trouble spot, don't walk down it at night, or better still avoid it altogether.
The concept also breaks down when it encounters another common human occurrence, deceit, certainly most common in politics. For example, do the people who voted for Tony Blair and the Labour Party in the 2001 election take responsibility for the Prime Ministers decision to invade Iraq alongside the United States in 2003? It was not a stated goal of the PM to do so, in fact, in June 2001 few could have foreseen the events of a few months later and the results that they would have on the world.
If a person lies to you, and you believe them, do you take responsibility for believing them?

Oh, and don't worry, I don't believe for a second that the mentality of 'my country right or wrong' is limited to just Germany of that era, it is a founding principle of nationalism and jingoism that's been all around the world since the dawn of the nation state.

In conclusion, I do understand where you're coming from, and agree, but it's a hard concept to put across the board on a planet with so many variables, but if people did take more responsibility for their actions instead of blaming it solely on others, well...this world would be quite a different place, wouldn't it?