Why aircraft carriers won't make sense in space

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

I was called The Warriors.

If that's the one in which the Kzin are a attacking an "unarmed" ship and only a human would think of turning his drive into a weapon, then it's not the one I was thinking of. The story I'm remembering happened as I described. No reaction drive, no real maneuverability. Just a big piece of metal dropped behind, and a flash of light months later. Very tame, very believable.

[edit] It might have been 'The Ethics of Madness', but if so my memory in this case is quiet faulty.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

If that's the one in which the Kzin are a attacking an "unarmed" ship and only a human would think of turning his drive into a weapon, then it's not the one I was thinking of. The story I'm remembering happened as I described. No reaction drive, no real maneuverability. Just a big piece of metal dropped behind, and a flash of light months later. Very tame, very believable.

[edit] It might have been 'The Ethics of Madness', but if so my memory in this case is quiet faulty.

Actually the Bussard Ramjet you described is a form of reaction drive.

Never read 'The Ethics of Madness', but the incident you described sounded a lot like 'The Warriors'. Probably just Niven copying himself.

[tater]

Protector was the Niven novel.

[Raptor1]

The Ethics of Madness does have a ramscoop chase but it ends with both ships colliding at the end (the pursuer has his life support system fried and sets to autopilot to collide with his opponent's ship). It is probably Protector that Steve is thinking about...

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by tater

Protector was the Niven novel.

Originally Posted by Raptor1

It is probably Protector that Steve is thinking about...

Does an incident like that happen in Protector? It's only been thirty years since I read them. I probably still have them all in my collection, but I still have a bunch of boxes to unpack, and I've run out of shelf space.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Does an incident like that happen in Protector? It's only been thirty years since I read them. I probably still have them all in my collection, but I still have a bunch of boxes to unpack, and I've run out of shelf space.

I'm a bit fuzzy on Protector, since it's been quite a while since I read it (though not thirty years, obviously), but IIRC it had a battle between the protagonists and pursuing Pak ships which includes the use of tactics similar to what you mention.

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

That makes sense. Also, in space, Aircraft carriers might be able to play an effective anti-ship role?

Also, we would need small, heavily armed stealth ships for attacking commerce!

Aircraft carriers in space would be about as good as cargo freighters, unless they're the sort that can conduct trans-Atmospheric operations like the AeroSpace Fighters in BattleTech. As for 'stealth ships', those seem to be out of the realm of realistic physics at this point.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

As for 'stealth ships', those seem to be out of the realm of realistic physics at this point.

I'm not quite so sure, we already have radar reduction materials, sound isn't going to be a problem, and heat dampeners would be simple enough to fit, and to escape visual detection, well you could probably just paint the thing black, or use refraction to bend light around the ship.
The primary problem comes with the reduction of the radar reductive material through collisions with micro-meteors and other small debris which nullifies its usefulness, but if a way is found around that then certainly stealth space vessels are a practical possibility, of course they would be primarily ambush vessels since their drive systems would be detectable in use, a bit like the 'tail-pipe' of Changs Bird of Prey. I think that any stealth technology though would find a better use in mines, depending on the level of defence that ships of the future have against micro-meteors and space debris it wouldn't even need to contain explosives, just enough mass to cause damage when the fast moving vessel collides with it.

Of course there is the possibility of sensor systems which are under development at the moment making things like radar obsolete, but whenever a detection system is developed, it is likely that a counter to it will be under development, from Window to ECM to Stealth.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I'm not quite so sure, we already have radar reduction materials, sound isn't going to be a problem, and heat dampeners would be simple enough to fit, and to escape visual detection, well you could probably just paint the thing black, or use refraction to bend light around the ship.
The primary problem comes with the reduction of the radar reductive material through collisions with micro-meteors and other small debris which nullifies its usefulness, but if a way is found around that then certainly stealth space vessels are a practical possibility, of course they would be primarily ambush vessels since their drive systems would be detectable in use, a bit like the 'tail-pipe' of Changs Bird of Prey. I think that any stealth technology though would find a better use in mines, depending on the level of defence that ships of the future have against micro-meteors and space debris it wouldn't even need to contain explosives, just enough mass to cause damage when the fast moving vessel collides with it.

Of course there is the possibility of sensor systems which are under development at the moment making things like radar obsolete, but whenever a detection system is developed, it is likely that a counter to it will be under development, from Window to ECM to Stealth.

Oberon you should read the link I posted in my last post:

http://www.projectrho.com/public_htm...ealth_In_Space

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I'm not quite so sure, we already have radar reduction materials, sound isn't going to be a problem, and heat dampeners would be simple enough to fit, and to escape visual detection, well you could probably just paint the thing black, or use refraction to bend light around the ship.
The primary problem comes with the reduction of the radar reductive material through collisions with micro-meteors and other small debris which nullifies its usefulness, but if a way is found around that then certainly stealth space vessels are a practical possibility, of course they would be primarily ambush vessels since their drive systems would be detectable in use, a bit like the 'tail-pipe' of Changs Bird of Prey. I think that any stealth technology though would find a better use in mines, depending on the level of defence that ships of the future have against micro-meteors and space debris it wouldn't even need to contain explosives, just enough mass to cause damage when the fast moving vessel collides with it.

Of course there is the possibility of sensor systems which are under development at the moment making things like radar obsolete, but whenever a detection system is developed, it is likely that a counter to it will be under development, from Window to ECM to Stealth.

The problem with stealth ships in space is waste heat and propulsion. If you have humans living on this ship, you are going to generate tons of waste heat, the only way to dispose of which is to radiate it outside the ship, which could be easily detected by anyone casually looking. Then you have the problem that, even if you shut down your engines while trying to be stealthy, you are going to have to burn them in order to actually get anywhere, which would of course be seen by everyone in the system. TLAM Strike's Project Rho link has a nice detailed explanation of the problems with stealth in space.

Stealth mines might work. I can see something like disguising inactive missiles as space junk in orbit, waiting to be activated when an enemy ship wanders too close as a workable tactic. But without a way around these problems "small, heavily armed stealth ships" would not work.

EDIT: Damn ninjas!