J. Stiglitz: The American Dream has become a myth

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Oberon

After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

Back in the Cold War days, I heard someone pretty much finish an argument with the simple statement "America is the only country I know of that builds walls to keep people out."

Yours is quite good too. Thanks.

[AVGWarhawk]

Not every American share the same dream. To some, having a 4 slice toaster is living the dream. I guess the article is under the assumption that everyone has the dream of home ownership or something of that nature. It is not entirely true. My one coworker has no desire to own a home. Riches are not always a dream.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Pretty simple actually, you can do it from tax return data. Look at what the parents made, then look at what their kids make. With census data and other stuff you can build a pretty decent picture of a family's socioeconomic status..

True, but doesnt that just prove that those who had parents with more money received a better education? Isnt that pretty much a just a cycle you'd expect?
Also there are many successful entrepeneurs in America, its not like having a masters and getting into someone else club is the only way up.

[soopaman2]

I just want to make enough to eat, love my wife, and not have to worry about tomorrow.

Sounds alot like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness.

Americans seek security.

But what we have is uncertainty, as we have all our wealth flowing upwards. Most of us, worry about our jobs, or we lose vacations and sick days, so the boss can get a raise....

Thank goodness, I am in one of the few professions that cannot be outsourced. Don't mean they do not strip us to barebones benefits in the process.

I shoulda became a government worker,dammit I had my chance too...They never gave back, they always took more, while we all took less in sacrifice to the bad economy.

[Skybird]

If more and more of the national wealth is accumulated in few and fewer hands, then this means problem in any country, no matter which political and economical system it runs by. There is also a problem of increasing power in few hands, and collapsing checks and balances. Money is influence, money actively creates opportunity to bypass checks and balances, and rules. The system gets eroded from inner self-dynamics. It is said that everything that exists, already carries the germ of its own destruction within itself. Its true, I think.

Wealth increasingly accumulating at the top creates self-dynamic accumulation effects from generation to generation. The problem worsens constantly. The debt crisis is an expression of that, and on multiple levels.

Every nation has its founding myths by which it runs and to which it's self-assessment returns when it meets trouble. Like a child meeting something frightening and then runs home to mama. In modern Germany there are two such myths: that all people must be made equal (not equal chances or equal rights, but must be made equal) and that Germany must dissolve to unite all Europe into one Germany-less entity. In America it is the fairy tale of from-rags-to-riches and melting pot. It seems to me for every little detail that supports any of these, there are a dozen details that contradict them, and every single case where an individual's life reflects these myths, there are a hundred or more, who lose, or fail to function according to the myth's definition or expectation. And the scissor opens wider and wider.

Capitalism seeks monopolism, and interest-based money lending increases circulating ammount of money without that additional money being covered by a matching increase in real value. Which inevitably runs the constant devaluation of money due to rich people saving money, and make profit from lending it. That money is either uncovered by real value, or is missing where it is needed - amongst those who are not rich. So they must borrow. The rich have, and become richer, the poor have not, and loose even more.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I just want to make enough to eat, love my wife, and not have to worry about tomorrow.

Sounds alot like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness.

Americans seek security.

But what we have is uncertainty, as we have all our wealth flowing upwards. Most of us, worry about our jobs, or we lose vacations and sick days, so the boss can get a raise....

Thank goodness, I am in one of the few professions that cannot be outsourced. Don't mean they do not strip us to barebones benefits in the process.

I shoulda became a government worker,dammit I had my chance too...They never gave back, they always took more, while we all took less in sacrifice to the bad economy.

What is your trade Soopa cant you work for yourself or have a few partners get yourself a contractors lic. I do commercial refrigeration myself and just recently started a small business with another HVAC guy its just the two of us and two trucks and the gear and helpers when needed.


Anyway the "American Dream".

Dream seems like a poor choice of words to me a dream is something surreal something in your subconsciousness that rarely directly reflects reality.You have a dream where your teeth fall out it is because you fear failure not because you want to become a dentist.

People have wants and goals and ideas not dreams.

[AVGWarhawk]

Comparing apples to oranges when comparing parents and their kids socioeconomic status. Monthly expenditures of people today are much more than their parents endured. Expenditures I'm speaking of are items like cable TV. Cellphones. Internet charges. Quite frankly I spend $400/month on these services. Hard to achieve the dream when your wallet is getting raped monthly by services you need. Daily activity is based on the services. Free TV is basically zero channels that require a set top box to receive the signal. Kids homework is based on internet access. Not to mention buying the hardware to connect the net.

Do the math. 1980:land line per month $9.00 includes long distance.
Computer: huh?

These items enrich our lives but at a cost. The dream scattered because of these wonderful enrichment. The dream is harder to obtain because of these type things but I do believe the dream is obtainable.

[Stealhead]

That seems like a lot of money for the cells tv and web but the charges must be alot higher up there perhaps.I also only have myself and a super basic plan for my daughter my wife has a business cell.That and we only get basic cable no real big tv viewers here.I just go to my friends for any Sunday Ticket games I want to see.

Anyway what really effects lower class and middle class is the cost of the things you must have/use just to get to work to have any money at all.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

What is your trade Soopa cant you work for yourself or have a few partners get yourself a contractors lic. I do commercial refrigeration myself and just recently started a small business with another HVAC guy its just the two of us and two trucks and the gear and helpers when needed.

Heavy machinery driver for a road crew. But that also means jackhammer expert, shovel monkey, and occasionally a coffee boy at 3am.

I always wanted to be independant, I honestly think it is fear of stepping outside of what is consistent money in order to get trained, then having to start over from the bottom.

Plus explaining to my wife why I would give up a good high paying job with benefits to take a risk in a bad economy is a hard sell. It's fear, and financial stability that keeps me from learning another trade.

The world needs ditch diggers too, that is literally what I do.

I applaud your balls and hard work, more folks like you, and less mercedes benz driving welfare queens, and we could be great again!

At the age of 18, I was sleeping under the boardwalk on the beach, and eating out of garbage cans. I am not as bad as some considering where I been.

Maybe that explains some of my sympathetic views towards the poor, and my so called liberal disease. (still my favorite thread ever made bless you yubba)

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Not every American share the same dream.

Before we can discuss whether the American Dream is or ain't a myth, we need to understand what that term really means.

I always liked this quote as it, to me, represents the American Dream

The right to regulate the use of wealth in the public interest is universally admitted. Let us admit also the right to regulate the terms and conditions of labor, which is the chief element of wealth, directly in the interest of the common good.

The fundamental thing to do for every man is to give him a chance to reach a place in which he will make the greatest possible contribution to the public welfare. Understand what I say there. Give him a chance, not push him up if he will not be pushed. Help any man who stumbles; if he lies down, it is a poor job to try to carry him; but if he is a worthy man, try your best to see that he gets a chance to show the worth that is in him.

-- some old dead guy

[Skybird]

"The right to regulate the use of wealth in the public interest is universally admitted."

That is not the American Dream. That is communism. And it leads to social degeneration and cultural collapse, for it discourages everything that is of value and is noble and creative and proud and strong in man, and it motivates what is of laziness, apathy, parasitic greed and envy, anti-social nature, and denial of responsibility.

The American Dream is more about to grant protection of private property without allowing the majority vote to regulate how the private owner may or may not use that wealth of his, by that he is owner and master of what is his and he can use it the way he wants, voluntarily, as long as he does not use it in any way that limits the right of somebody else to own and use his property.

What that is all about? It is about freedom. The freedom to own what nobody else has claimed and thus is claimed first by yourself. The freedom to produce on the basis of this originally owned property. The freedom to trade either the original property or the newly produced goods by conditions bilaterally negotiated and agreed upon by the two partners, without any state interfering, and without any anonymous majority demanding to have a word in that. The freedom to be your own fate's creator.

That is the American dream. Public regulations of an ever growing bureaucracy, socialist redistribution in the name of the canaille and political opportunists, taking more and more rights of owners of something of value away and giving the majority the right to claim it for itself instead - that is freedom NOT, that is the American Dream NOT.



There are excesses by the ultra-rich, no doubt, and they did and do a lot of damage, absolutely. But that they are given the chance to run these excesses and to abuse society and the institutions of the state has different and much much more profound and basic reasons than just lacking regulation of wealth - and that there is a strong central state and government is one of these very reasons. What they do, is an abuse of freedom. Destroying freedom even more in order to reduce the abuse of freedom is like killing the patient in order to cure his disease.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Skybird

"The right to regulate the use of wealth in the public interest is universally admitted."

That is not the American Dream. That is communism. And it leads to social degeneration and cultural collapse, for it discourages everything that is of value and is noble and creative and proud and strong in man, and it motivates what is of laziness, apathy, parasitic greed and envy, anti-social nature, and denial of responsibility.

The American Dream is more about to grant protection of private property without allowing the majority vote to regulate how the private owner may or may not use that wealth of his, by that he is owner and master of what is his and he can use it the way he wants, voluntarily, as long as he does not use it in any way that limits the right of somebody else to own and use his property.

With all due respect...what do you know about the American Dream? Have you lived here for any lengthy period of time?

Sorry if I come across as harsh, but when you dog Teddy Roosevelt, who is one of my historical heroes and someone that I feel really "gets it" in terms of what America is all about, you get my dander up.

Sorry to sound like August here, but I think you're out of your depth and you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

With all due respect...what do you know about the American Dream? Have you lived here for any lengthy period of time?

Sorry if I come across as harsh, but when you dog Teddy Roosevelt, who is one of my historical heroes and someone that I feel really "gets it" in terms of what America is all about, you get my dander up.

Sorry to sound like August here, but I think you're out of your depth and you have no idea what you're talking about.

Not to defend Skybird here, Mookie, but the American dream has been shared by many an immigrant well before they'd ever set foot on our shores. "Shining city on a hill" and all that jazz that I happen to whole-heartedly believe in. I guess I'm just asking you to rebuttal the argument and not the person, because I believe that who we are as a nation stands for far more people than those who merely reside within our borders.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Not to defend Skybird here, Mookie, but the American dream has been shared by many an immigrant well before they'd ever set foot on our shores. "Shining city on a hill" and all that jazz that I happen to whole-heartedly believe in. I guess I'm just asking you to rebuttal the argument and not the person, because I believe that who we are as a nation stands for far more people than those who merely reside within our borders.

You are indeed correct and I humbly stand corrected. I blame the wine!

To rebut the argument - that is absolutely not communism. It's patriotism. It's a nation coming together and people pursuing their goals and the whole nation becoming ever stronger for it - becoming more than a sum of the parts. It's about everyone getting a fair shake. It's about the rising tide lifting all boats. It's about recognizing the need for both capital AND labor and recognizing the symbiotic relationship between them, and realizing one would not exist without the other and to that end ensuring that the system doesn't unjustly favor one at the expense of the other. Wealth comes with privilege, and that privilege can be used to exploit those without wealth. Necessary structure is required to ensure that the system continues to benefit everyone equally.

I suppose someone that came from a part of the world where communism was a very real fact of everyday life not so long ago might be inclined to see it as communism, but there's a distinct difference in TR's words that may be too subtle to grasp for someone looking from the outside in.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

With all due respect...what do you know about the American Dream? Have you lived here for any lengthy period of time?

Sorry if I come across as harsh, but when you dog Teddy Roosevelt, who is one of my historical heroes and someone that I feel really "gets it" in terms of what America is all about, you get my dander up.

Sorry to sound like August here, but I think you're out of your depth and you have no idea what you're talking about.

The American Dream is a term common in literature that can objectively discussed on the grounds of history, politics, economics and more - without needing to live in America or holding American citizenship. You could as well question the wisdom in discussing for example Keynesian economics as long as you have not lived in Britain or Roman law without having lived in the Roman empire or the idea behind the the era of German romanticism without being German. Same is true for the pursuit of happiness - you can discuss its content and meaning and vision like you can discuss the premise of the German Basic Law that the dignity of man is untouchable.

and I stick to it, the basic idea of changing society according to socialist and communist ideas is redistributing wealth from private owners to everybody. Any government claiming the right to regulate wealth, interferes with the basic freedom of citizens, and the more a state or government is being left with the power not only to financially live by the people, but to even regulate how much people have to give away, the more such a govenrmet will want in taxes, redistribution, and control of people'S freedom. In other words, after private property gets ordered to be turned into property owned by all (regulate wealth), democratic governments turn into tyrannies themselves. In principle, democratic governments are tyrannies from all beginning on - already for the only reason of that they do exist.

BTW, I knew by whom the quote was, I have read it before. Still, I call it the operation manual to run communism.

The US were founded as a lose union of sub-national entities with a very weak - intended - government, the foundign fathers explciitly tried to prevent that America would turn into a democracy. It was Andrew Jackson, the sixth or seventh president, who started to inject the idea of a stronger national centralism in government, and to demand that the basis of political power should become a justification founded in the idea of democracy. With it, there came the American so-called spoils system, the birth of massive economic lobbyism, and all the aberrations and distortions that democracy unavoidably comes along with and that the founding fathers wanted to prevent. And it took a civil war to enforce the strong central government against the bitter opposition of a significant part of the american people. The end of slavery was just only aspect of it all. The change from an aristocratic to a democratic republic was far more decisive a consequence of the civil war, like later in Europe the first World War marked the change from monarchic systems to democratic republican system.

One must not live in America or be American to talk about this, Mookie. Both conditions do not guarantee education on these things, btw. What really is far ire important is: to have access and to read some books, or use other sources of education on something.

I do not claim to be an expert for American history. But I constantly learn about it in context with the political themes I am interested in. I have great sympathy for the ideas and worries of the original founders of America, and their vision of what the country should be like, and led by what sort of ethical yearning. But I have not much sympathy for what the US today is, and how it has changed for the worse since then, and how it has deformed its original nature and spirit. America today and the America that once was meant to be - are lightyears apart. All my criticism of of America today must always be seen in the light of this basic opinion of mine: the difference between how it was meant to be, and how it really is today.