Two dead and several wounded in NYC shooting outside Empire State Building

How much training is considered "proper"?

You can see in those figures where the proper training comes into play with a 100% hit rate.
Its a bit confusing with the accidental discharge though, how can you hit your target if you didn't mean to shoot it in the first place?
Would that mean a miss counted as a hit and a hit counts as a miss?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

How much training is considered "proper"?

That's for shots fired by NYC police officers at a range of 2 yards or less...51%.

At 7 yards it's 44%
At 15 yards the hit rate was a whopping 7%.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...ge-report.html

As someone who did some training with pistols i say its very bad statistics...for training shooting in optimal conditions....static targets/shooting and so on....
Almost anyone can pass this with couple hours of exercise...and that is probably the idea.
As someone said here shooting pistols accurately is more demanding than long weapons.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

You also have to remember that a pistol is inherently difficult to aim. With a rifle, you can stabilize the weapon with both hands and shoulder and you have that long barrel as an aiming point. A pistol is only held in one hand and even with a two handed grip, it is easy to be slightly off and miss completely. With a semi-auto pistol, you also have to contend with the cumulative recoil of all these rounds being fired in quick succession, each one of which will throw off your aim slightly. Only getting 1/2 of the bullets in the target in these situations is not abnormal.

Originally Posted by Stealhead

It all boils down to ones level of training with a pistol.Yes you do have much less stability with a pistol but this does not mean that they inherently inaccurate.A person that trains themselves properly to use a pistol under stress should be fairly accurate.
...

I love the armed civilian concept here though that is a laugh you can get a carry permit in a few hours they provide you with no realistic training and do not require you to qualify with your
weapon on a regular basis.In other words the person carrying could be a horrible shot be a panicky freak and that is just bad news.Sure there are some people that have carry permits that actually know what they are doing but you cant be sure. Realistically a conceal carry is best for a robbery or other situation where the suspect is forced to flee when they realize that their intended victim was packing heat or in a similar situation where merely the display of the firearm is enough to end the situation.

Off the wall, random response:

My Wife and I go to the target range every week. Between the two of us, we burn 200 rounds of 9MM every sunday. So I guess you could say we get our practice in. A few things I have learned:
- Some days, your just off, and not on your game. Other days your doing really good.
- Shooting "cold" can sometimes be the most challenging in terms of scoring accurate hits or a good grouping.
- Regular target shooting does not reflect how well you will do in a stress situation. If you want to have the best idea of how well you'd do in a real situation without actually being in a situation is this:
1. Get a body target, and go to an indoor range.
2. Put that target on the track, and send it all the way down to 25 yards.
3. Put your gun down on the bench, just as you'd normally carry it.
4. Use the track controls, and it tell to bring the target back to 0 yards. (Shift + Home keys on the range i frequent)
5. Grab your gun off the bench and put as many rounds into the target as you can before it reach's you. (it moves at you fairly fast)

I don't know what the proper term for that, but the wife and I call that a "fast approach". You can be scoring bullsyes with normal target shooting, but on a "fast approach' you'll find your all over the place. In this situation, we grade ourselves on how many shots we got out of the mag, of those how many hit the sillouette, and how many misses. My best so far, after practice, is 15 rounds fired, 12 hits, and 3 misses. Can i replicate that? Not always. When i first tried this, that figure was reversed. 9, 12, or 15 rounds fired, with few hits, and mostly misses hitting the paper around the silloutte, or missing the paper entirely. Is this accurate training? I'm gonna say No, but it gives you a ballpark idea of how you'd really do if you had to use your handgun in a defensive situation.


Other thought: My wife and I are going to get our concealed carry permits in the next few months (Ie whenever we get off our asses and make time to go to the class and fill out all the paperwork). I'll be doing this, not to act as a "civillian sheepdog" as some people like to call it, but only as a means to protect myself, my wife, and any children we may have. It's better to have it and not needed it, then need it and not have it. Since we can get the permit, why the hell not? Even though it does come with a great responsiblity, one of which is to try and deescalate, and otherwise try and get yourself out of a situation before resorting to your sidearm. In any court, in any state, they should be asking, "did he do everything he could to remove himself before the action took place?". ( Except maybe Florida. )

[Platapus]

Yet another point to consider.

Paper does not shoot back.

Yet another point to consider.

Paper does not shoot back.

Noted in the posted NYPD figures.
shooting yourself.....best hit rate
shooting someone who is shooting back....worst hit rate

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Yet another point to consider.

Paper does not shoot back.

Well Duh.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

How much training is considered "proper"?

That's for shots fired by NYC police officers at a range of 2 yards or less...51%.

At 7 yards it's 44%
At 15 yards the hit rate was a whopping 7%.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...ge-report.html

OK i have red the link...it is statistic under real condition which probably is average for police force in every country...or worse.
What is required here is a lot of reflex shooting training to improve this The result is very much up to individual talent because pistol shooting is sort of like martial art.
One can not expect every policeman to be like that...it would be difficult to maintain sizeable force.

[Penguin]

Another point is that according to Steve's statistics, many shootings involved dogs = a quirky moving, small target. This might explain the bad hit rate even at shortest distances, as the stats go for all shootings.

It would also interested to know how NYC cops train. The usual police firing ranges in my state are "classic" ones: non-moving paper targets at different distances.
There is one quite sophisticated police range in a neighbor city, where the cops train with the help of a blue box, where their collegues play the bad guys and civilians in front of a cam and are pasted into the range. A little odd that they shoot at their own co-workers, but the overall training looks very true to reality.

Originally Posted by Platapus

Paper does not shoot back.

I tend to disagree:

[Stealhead]

Everyone is forgetting one key factor the stress of a real life situation and the unpredictable movement factor of a real threat.

A person can be a crack shooter at a gun range but might be a horrible shot in a life or death situation.Even well trained soldiers can miss and for many reasons.I think
you could maybe do a crap load of calisthenics work up a heart rate something to get your blood flowing something to be making your breathing more labored anything to make
shooting as uncomfortable as possible that would be a better way to simulate the stress.

Many police have a special training program that simulates the types of firearm use situations a cop might encounter if a small PD in Florida has this training I am sure that the largest one in the country does as well.

I suppose the best training would be the reflexive shooting training.

All I can say is until you have been 10 feet away from a man with a gun and had to contended with shooting him and also trying not to hit anyone on one of the most crowded city streets in the country then you can have something to say.

You have a little to say if you have ever actually had to draw and fire on an attacking person period.I am betting that no one here has this experience.The closest I have come is shooting a boar and he did not know I was there until a 7.62x54mm bullet from a 91/30 went though his heart.I have done that many times sometimes with a different caliber.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Everyone is forgetting one key factor the stress of a real life situation and the unpredictable movement factor of a real threat.

A person can be a crack shooter at a gun range but might be a horrible shot in a life or death situation.Even well trained soldiers can miss and for many reasons..

In my other post I was actually agreeing with you. Doing as I described, is actually an eye opener. A body sized target is huge. You'd think, "how can i miss that?". Well, you can, and you do, with the target is running right at you, even as big as it is. The only stress in that scenario is trying to be fast and accurate, which isn't much, but it's enough to make you realize that how you do against a stationary target, and how you do at a moving target under even a small amount of pressure, even one running right at you, is vastly different.

edit:
As an aside, it occurs to me, everyone in this thread is an "expert". (I don't claim exemption) Also, I think JIT training is a bunch of BS. Something I'm sure Stealhead knows about being prior Air Force. The more you practice, the better you get. I garuntee, if you have to use your firearm, you'll do a lot better with it if you practice regularly , then if you hadn't. Of course how much better is all relative to the individual.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

edit:
As an aside, it occurs to me, everyone in this thread is an "expert".

..and that is a surprise?...

[MH]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

edit:
As an aside, it occurs to me, everyone in this thread is an "expert". (I don't claim exemption) Also, I think JIT training is a bunch of BS. Something I'm sure Stealhead knows about being prior Air Force. The more you practice, the better you get. I garuntee, if you have to use your firearm, you'll do a lot better with it if you practice regularly , then if you hadn't. Of course how much better is all relative to the individual.

When you practice you need to practice in certain ways that simulate real life conditions and have nailed them in the primal brain.
Shooting at the range is better than nothing though.

No im not an expert or gun junkie.....but did some shooting.

BW

By looking at the cops statistics just imagine how it would be with every average Mr smith that feels like having gun....bullets flying everywhere...

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

We need Hanomag in here. I'd love to hear his thoughts on the matter.

Agreed...it's possible Mike may have been in a similar situation before.

[CCIP]

Well, I'm glad this has provoked the type of debate I was hoping for! I don't think there's an easy answer here at all, and I wouldn't dare blame the cops. It's just that it's very important for people to know that these are life-and-death decisions made very, very quickly, and that guns are extremely deadly any time they're pointed in the general direction of people. My original point here was simply that they are not always the problem-solvers that some people take them for, and that this is an attitude that sometimes concerns me. Even people specifically trained for these situations make tragic mistakes, and that's a big deal. I think that's something that every responsible gun owner needs to take to heart.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by MH

When you practice you need to practice in certain ways that simulate real life conditions

That's why there are practical/tactical shooting ranges, that simulate urban environments. Unfortunately, not everyone has access to one. I think it would be A LOT of fun going to a range like that every week. I'd never go to a normal shooting range again.

and have nailed them in the primal brain.

Muscle memory for the win.

Shooting at the range is better than nothing though.

Yup.

Originally Posted by CCIP

It's just that it's very important for people to know that these are life-and-death decisions made very, very quickly, and that guns are extremely deadly any time they're pointed in the general direction of people. My original point here was simply that they are not always the problem-solvers that some people take them for, and that this is an attitude that sometimes concerns me. Even people specifically trained for these situations make tragic mistakes, and that's a big deal. I think that's something that every responsible gun owner needs to take to heart.

Oh, guns ARE problem solvers. The fact of the matter is, some people are a waste of oxygen, and when they threaten other peoples lives, it is a problem that needs to be solved. However, that solution to that particular problem is typically, a last resort, and the majority of gun owners take there firearms seriously, and responsibly. In case you haven't heard, there's 4 basic rules to remember. I uploaded these just for you.




It is basic rule number 4 the cops didn't quite have time to concern themselves with.