who still likes SH4

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

SH4 also needs a complete integration of the U-Boat war, not just a band aid add-on. There is absolutely no reason why a single game cannot have ALL of SH3 plus SH4 plus fixes incorporated, like a spherical earth, completely rewritten targeting system to give you an authentic maneuvering board along with more authentic navigation.

It should incorporate the tools the real submariners used in their work, bearing rate tables, stadimeter plots, the entire shebang from the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual, is-was, sextant, more TDC functions.

with all the 8gb-16gb games you see today there is no reason this couldnt be done, hell the modders did it for them if they just simply used the examples of what the modders showed them needed to be done.

sh4 should have been a game engine update and american uboat expansion along with better grafics, hell all the sh3 files are still in sh4 anyway. if this were done then sh5 wouldnt have even been needed, they could have used there efforts into new game content and a further campaign expansion

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Webster

with all the 8gb-16gb games you see today there is no reason this couldnt be done, hell the modders did it for them if they just simply used the examples of what the modders showed them needed to be done.

sh4 should have been a game engine update and american uboat expansion along with better grafics, hell all the sh3 files are still in sh4 anyway. if this were done then sh5 wouldnt have even been needed, they could have used there efforts into new game content and a further campaign expansion

1000% correct, except that all the SH3 stuff in SH4 is totally screwed up by people who didn't understand what the SH3 devs did. It would take a team of hackers to dissassemble the code, severely scrutinize it, poke it with dirty sharp sticks and figure out how each module works and how it expects to interact with other modules.

This, of course, is nothing that UBI would ever spend the resources to do. If a team from Subsim did, they would be violating every copyright law on the books of several nations. It's just not going to happen anytime soon, unless UBI goes completely broke and dissolves without anybody else picking up rights to the Silent Hunter franchise.

[Armistead]

Shame they won't allow us to open up the code....

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

If a team from Subsim did, they would be violating every copyright law on the books of several nations. It's just not going to happen anytime soon, unless UBI goes completely broke and dissolves without anybody else picking up rights to the Silent Hunter franchise.

You fail to realize there are loop holes for everything Take a peek over at SH5 Mods Forum - look at my SH5 exe patches to fix bugs and add functionality. I have an app that will patch the exe and act files. It does not violate any copyright rules because I do not release any modified files. I release patch files that my app uses to patch up the end users files. 100% legit and legal because what you do in your own house is your business as long as you don't release it to the public. Having the source code would be much easier but I'm perfectly at home with assembly also.

Let me give you an analogy that proves my point: I own an AR-15. I did a google search for 'how to make AR-15 full auto'. I found a document (plans actually) that show how to make something that you can install in your AR-15 in less than a minute that makes it full auto. Did the author of those plans violate any copyrights or patents? Nope. Freedom of speech, gotta love that American right. I do the same thing - I provide the means, it's up to the end user to decide what to do with those means.

SH5 is a wonderful game. You really should try it patched up and modded I just gave SH5 the ability to use independent speed controls for each shaft. More 'improvements' on the way!

Just so this post is relevant to the subject I do not like SH4 - never have. It was supposed to be an improvement over SH3. They failed miserably. I played it 10 mins and then shelved it. It's been collecting dust ever since...

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I played it 10 mins and then shelved it. It's been collecting dust ever since...

Sold mine on Amazon. Garish colours gave me headaches.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

Garish colours gave me headaches.

Post processing filter can be changed to whatever pallet you like.




So.. wee, looks like another "My silent hunter is better then your silent hunter" thing going on. Whatever. But since its out there, ill toss in my 2 cents.

In my opinion....

Silent hunter 4 is the title with the most potential.

1. It's one level of indirection away from SH3. Lets face it, like it or not, SH3 is the yardstick that is being used in this community. Most of the old fart modders cut there teeth there. Racerboy, err i mean The dark Wraith, and myself included. SH3 has the most unbroken features as compared to SH4, and with still more broken features in SH5. The further you get from SH3, the more broken the base game is. Why? Cause ubi reused code. They took SH3, stapled some modifcations onto it, and made SH4. With SH5, they took this thing which was stapled over SH3, and duct taped something onto the top of that. SH5 is two levels in indirection away from the most (comparitively) bug free base. Not to say that SH3 doesnt have its issues. It does. But the more Ubi added onto it, the more issues they introduced. Sh5 inherits ALL the problems of SH4, and SH3, while introducing new issues all it's own.

2. Most options to the end user. SH4 is the only title in the series that has the ability to allow you to explore two different theaters of war, and a whole lot of different submarines to choose from. Basically, its entirely possible to play with every major submarine type the Germans and Americans ever fielded in WW2.

3. Way easier to mod. The fact that its not using a proprietary file format like GR2, and with a well developed swiss army knife of mod tools (S3D), with the lone exception of hardcoded behavior, there isn't a whole lot you can't accomplish in SH4. However, even some hardcoded stuff can be modded if people really wanted to. Exe patch's exist for Sh3 and SH5. Just not SH4, because it's the red headed step child of what is largely a uboat fan site. Uboat fans tend to be purists, and since SH4 isn't a pure uboat game, its the red headed step child of the community.

3. Game manages campaign resources exceptionally well, and the game loads faster then both SH3, and SH5. Personally, I hate staring at load screens.

4. No DRM.

I'm sure if i sat here long enough i could come up with all sorts of reasons why SH4 is the best overall title if you look at the larger picture. It has the most potential, and the majority of it will remained untapped. A lot of people bitch because SH5 wasn't what they wanted. Which was SH3 with better graphics. Much of the same people scoff at SH4 because it's not pure uboat. And I admit, I had my role to play in that back in the "battle of the fanboys" between fleet boat and uboat fans. But the bottom line is people will still sit there and play SH3 until the game is too old to be ran on newer machines because their too set in there ways, and are used to others building the modded game for them. Hell I imagine some years hence people will still be playing SH3 with either GWX or NYGM on a modern equivlant to running and old game in a Dos box when untapped potential is just one SH title higher. But that isn't my problem.


Side note on SH5: I like it a lot, but there's just too many newer problems to fix, too many older problems to fix (again), and this point, i'm done with submarine sims entirely. SH3, 4, and 5 all play the same way. Find, chase sink. Repeat tell tedium sets in. Been there, done that, bought the T shirt, and wore it out.

well said

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Been there, done that, bought the T shirt, and wore it out.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

4. No DRM.

Well, I hate to bring it up again, but the dowloadable version and the original version were and still are graced with SecuROM, Sony's gift to the world, but sold dearly to the game companies.

With the release of patch 1.4, the DRM was completely removed. Then with the release of SH4UBM, the DRM was back, wearing a brand new suit! Ubi claimed it was gone, but SecuROM was back performing revenge on those who angered Sony.

Every time you start SH4, SecuROM scans your system searching for any process on its blacklist of prohibited software. If it finds one, SH4 will immediatly cease running and you will be confronted with an arcane window explaining that SecuROM has found some kind of program on your machine and an error number. Get rid of the software if you want to run Silent Hunter 4.

Owners of SH4 Gold get off scott free. No DRM of any kind.

There are ways to cloak your machine so SecuROM can't find blacklisted processes. And there are ways to trick SecuROM into running Silent Hunter and then restart the prohibited processes.

[fitzcarraldo]

I agree with Ducimus. SH4 has an unexplored potential. To my taste the graphics are better in SH4 than SH5. It's very interesting the Pacific War and you can participate in historical battles (with RSRDC). SH4 is easy to modding and scripting campaign files. We have a lot of stuff from SH3 working well in SH4 as OM demonstrated. I have SH5 modded (TDW Mods mainly) and I don't like it.

I enjoy playing SH4. It has many flaws but I hope it will be corrected in the future. Maddy with FOTRS 2, CapScurvy with OTC and the superbe Ducimus' TMO 25 are in the right way.

I was a die hard fan of SH3 for many years. Now I´m playing SH4 in PTO, remembering the good old times of SH1, my first subsim.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo

[fitzcarraldo]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Well, I hate to bring it up again, but the dowloadable version and the original version were and still are graced with SecuROM, Sony's gift to the world, but sold dearly to the game companies.

With the release of patch 1.4, the DRM was completely removed. Then with the release of SH4UBM, the DRM was back, wearing a brand new suit! Ubi claimed it was gone, but SecuROM was back performing revenge on those who angered Sony.

Every time you start SH4, SecuROM scans your system searching for any process on its blacklist of prohibited software. If it finds one, SH4 will immediatly cease running and you will be confronted with an arcane window explaining that SecuROM has found some kind of program on your machine and an error number. Get rid of the software if you want to run Silent Hunter 4.

Owners of SH4 Gold get off scott free. No DRM of any kind.

There are ways to cloak your machine so SecuROM can't find blacklisted processes. And there are ways to trick SecuROM into running Silent Hunter and then restart the prohibited processes.

I have the SH4 1.4 DVD original boxed version and it hasn´t any "securom" (???). Also I have the UBOAT Expansion original (SH4 1.5) and - also - it hasn´t any "securom".

The game run in my W7 machine without problems and without DVD...Perfect!

Regards.

Fitz

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by fitzcarraldo

I have the SH4 1.4 DVD original boxed version and it hasn´t any "securom" (???). Also I have the UBOAT Expansion original (SH4 1.5) and - also - it hasn´t any "securom".

The game run in my W7 machine without problems and without DVD...Perfect!

Mine runs perfectly too. However, if you look on the back of the box, down at the bottom you'll find a tiny yellow box with the message:

"Notice: This game contains technology intended to prevent copying that may conflict with some disc and virtual drives."

That's SecureRom.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Owners of SH4 Gold get off scott free. No DRM of any kind.

My copy of the Gold edition contains the exact same message.

[Ducimus]

The secureRom was deactivated in a later patch. if memory serves correctly, originally you had to have your CD in. After said patch (1.4? or was it with the UBM? ) this was no longer the case.

In other words, yes it did have an active DRM at one point, but it no longer does if you have the latest version. In any event, you don't mess with Uplay at all with SH4.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

The secureRom was deactivated in a later patch. if memory serves correctly, originally you had to have your CD in. After said patch (1.4? or was it with the UBM? ) this was no longer the case.

I'm pretty sure it was 1.4, but since I only use the Gold disc these days I can't say for certain. You could be right about the DRM. The might have not changed the back of the box.

In any event, you don't mess with Uplay at all with SH4.

Another reason to praise SH4.

[0rpheus]

Surely the DRM is the least relevant factor by now? Even 5 works perfectly well in offline mode nowadays.

5 is well on its way to being as moddable as 3 or 4 with the work TDW is doing; when new units start being added properly it'll be a new lease of life for 5.

4 is the most 'complete' to me, as I can add one supermod and a few small bits and its ready to go; I play 4 more than 5 at the moment as I don't have time to test new mods as much as I used to. When the time comes that 5 receives a supermod, I've no doubt it'll get equal play time.

But this is all by the by - this 'potential' discussion keeps coming up, and is never really resolved. 3/4/5 preferences aside, everyone seems to agree that more could be done - but few agree on what should be done. What do we want in our subsims? If 3 is as close to 'complete' as it's ever likely to get, 4 is a different theatre entirely and 5 is 3 but with half the features, what should be done to improve things?

TDW's working on 5; 4 already has an excellent (modded) German campaign... what's left to do? And further to that, with all the 'big' modders now out of the game*, who's going to do it?

*though most are still here, still looking, and half the time it almost seems like some of them want a reason to get back into it, but won't admit it...

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by 0rpheus

Surely the DRM is the least relevant factor by now? Even 5 works perfectly well in offline mode nowadays.

Could have fooled me. I still see Uplay threads in the SH5 forum. People having problems with the update, unable to login, server outage, etc. The old thread that proclaims that Ubisoft removed the DRM is an utter falsehood. Offlinemode like steam now yes. DRM free? No.

5 is well on its way to being as moddable as 3 or 4 with the work TDW is doing; when new units start being added properly it'll be a new lease of life for 5.

Eventually thing's will come in time i'm sure. I just wonder who will be doing them. It may be a long while.

But this is all by the by - this 'potential' discussion keeps coming up, and is never really resolved.

I find the argument valid since SH4 has the ability to play PTO, ATO, and every submarine used in both theaters, as well as make any number of flotillas you like. No other SH title can do this.

3/4/5 preferences aside, everyone seems to agree that more could be done - but few agree on what should be done.

Everyone has their own opinions, and priorities. This is why multiple supermods exist in SH4, and to a lesser extent SH3.

What do we want in our subsims?

The answer to that question will vary greatly depending on who you ask.

4 already has an excellent (modded) German campaign... what's left to do?

While I haven't tried OM, and while I'm sure it's a kick ass campaign, i'm also positive that there's a lot of details that weren't addressed. One man can only do so much, and you can't expect him to do it all. I can think of a bunch of things to address honestly. So many, I'm not sure where to start naming them all. Overall, SH4 is nowhere near complete. Regardless of supermod used, there is many, Many, MANY.... WAY too many that could be done.

And further to that, with all the 'big' modders now out of the game*, who's going to do it?

Some new blood, or someone who gets tired of waiting for things to happen, and says, "screw it, ill do it myself".