Torpedos, extreme range and accuracy

Von Due · 08-07-12, 07:59 PM

The problem with long range shots was something I pondered when I played SH2. I was looking for a way to get the targets without having Superman, the X Men and the A Team onboard those Marvel Comics destroyers racing towards me wherever I was within medium range. IIRC, the graphics didn't allow for much sniping but now that I am able to identify ships at greater ranges I might have a chance.

I have only succeeded one or two times before in SH3 at 10,000 metres or so and only at high resolution but I had no good idea of why it couldn't be done a bit more consistently. A few things are certain. At those ranges I'm dealing with fractions of degrees and 1/10th's of a knot but it can be sorted to a pretty good level.

A rough sketch to accompany the first post

Red October1984 · 08-07-12, 08:52 PM

I close to about 2000-4000 before i fire. When i do fire, I set it up so that i either

1. Take out as many targets as possible

2. Make sure that i take out my one target

3. Can disable the most dangerous target

I have disabled several destroyers and then followed the High Value Target ships a good while and sink them. But, the third option is a bit harder than the first two.

A torpedo to the screws can do a lot to a destroyer.

derrinurban · 08-08-12, 11:21 AM

To me the hardest part about extreme range attacks was the ship speed and actually firing the torpedo. The math is the easy part. You can get the ship speed close. You will probably never be 100% accurate but very close. Then you need to time you shot perfectly. Hitting the fire button precisely at the right time is almost impossible. Again you can be close but not perfect. Those fractions of seconds between when you are supposed to hit the button and do and the second for the torpedo to clear the tube make hits at that range lucky at best. IMHO

HW3 · 08-08-12, 01:14 PM

That plus if you are using steam torpedoes, the wake might be spotted and evasive maneuvers taken by the ship, which will also cause a miss.

Shkval · 08-08-12, 02:21 PM

Well for me the classic stationary 4 bearing (i.e. three bearing... I use fourth bearing only in low visibility) + ship length x 1.943/ seconds from bow to stern, works pretty good...
Except for:
1. Outgoing targets (it doesn't work at all... any solutions? except the answer "don't go after the outgoing ships")
2. Changing course targets.
3. And those... I call them "dead angle" targets (targets who quickly enter into "constant distance" state i.e. too wide range of possible solutions for AOB... and you get equal degrees between bearings... bad karma).
For me usual distance is 3 to 6 MAYBE 7 km (depends on weather, type of a torpedo, time of a day/night, visibility and generally combination of all these factors).
Everything above 7 km is a shot with 50% of pure luck if you are firing single torpedo... salvo is a different story... chance of a hit grows exponentially with every additional torpedo. But that's a waste of ammo in my humble opinion...
I did scored hits at 11 km... but that was clear, perfectly calm sea at night with moonlight and the large target (HMS Hood)... task force was announced trough contact report so I did have time to position myself nicely and prepare the attack... there was a few more cases but that was pure luck...

Von Due · 08-08-12, 04:51 PM

Thanks a ton for the input, you all!

This is an attempt to find out if it is at all possible to increase the probability, to find out how much margin for error I actually have, theoretically up against the game and what it allows.
Questions are, how much inaccuracy for a 100+ metres ship? How much error can be allowed to hit within 40 metres to either side of centre? And how accurate does the game allow me to be?

So far I have found the stationary 4 bearing method by far the best but it does have limitations on accuracy if I disable the hydrophone lines and even they are not telling the true story, sometimes pointing near the engine room, other times near the screws. Without the lines I have to allow for 1 degree error on each bearing and that could mean getting the target course wrong by as much as 10 degrees or even more and reading speed is no better off when I need that much higher accuracy. I am looking at the possibility of using optics at closer range to get more exact bearings but unsure if it can be done within the game, in particular the fact that I can only read a reasonably accurate bearing via the TDC and need to jump to nav map while time is ticking.

As for timing the fireing, at those ranges it's impossible to be exact, resolution and how much each pixel is in ship length means I have to eyeball it so there is inaccuracy there.

I already have found that surface attacks are right out. Only by staying submerged can I keep the course at a constant heading and even then it takes a bit of rudder to keep it at an exact heading. Submerged, it's manageable but I don't want it worse.

Steam torpedos and wake, that is indeed a challenge. What I wonder is how to decrease the probability of them spotting it. Lighting, weather and their crew experience matter but what can be done to maximize the chances there? Reason I wonder is I had ships taking evasive maneuvers at night when my steam torpedos were some 1500 metres away. Just bad luck and the A Team on the bridge? I really would like to know.

Outgoing targets, I'm sorry but what do you mean by that? Targets past the fireing angle?

I depend on target keeping a constant heading and speed. Without that, I don't think I could guaranty a hit at 400 metres

let alone at 10,000 metres.

Hinrich Schwab · 08-08-12, 09:06 PM

I rely on the Fast-90 method for all of my shots. However, the range comes into play at point-blank (< 500m/yds) and at extreme range (> 7000m/yds). I did some long calcs a while back and the float is only +/- 1.5 degrees. No big deal at point-blank, but the extra 1.5 degrees does matter at extreme range. Using ATAN (Target Speed/Torp Speed) to determine lead angle, subtract the 1.5 degree float for starboard-to-port targets and add the 1.5 float for port-to-starboard targets. My hit rate is around 75%, taking into account dud rates, possible aspect changes from the target and general weirdness. My longest range hit and kill is around 9km.

Shkval · 08-09-12, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Due

Outgoing targets, I'm sorry but what do you mean by that? Targets past the fireing angle?

Moving away targets.

08-07-12, 08:52 PM	#2
Red October1984 Airplane Nerd Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 6,243 Downloads: 115 Uploads: 0	I close to about 2000-4000 before i fire. When i do fire, I set it up so that i either 1. Take out as many targets as possible 2. Make sure that i take out my one target 3. Can disable the most dangerous target I have disabled several destroyers and then followed the High Value Target ships a good while and sink them. But, the third option is a bit harder than the first two. A torpedo to the screws can do a lot to a destroyer. __________________

08-08-12, 01:14 PM	#4
HW3 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gresham Oregon Posts: 6,576 Downloads: 458 Uploads: 0	That plus if you are using steam torpedoes, the wake might be spotted and evasive maneuvers taken by the ship, which will also cause a miss. __________________ "Some ships are designed to sink...others require our assistance." Nathan Zelk

08-08-12, 02:21 PM	#5
Shkval Planesman Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 192 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	Well for me the classic stationary 4 bearing (i.e. three bearing... I use fourth bearing only in low visibility) + ship length x 1.943/ seconds from bow to stern, works pretty good... Except for: 1. Outgoing targets (it doesn't work at all... any solutions? except the answer "don't go after the outgoing ships") 2. Changing course targets. 3. And those... I call them "dead angle" targets (targets who quickly enter into "constant distance" state i.e. too wide range of possible solutions for AOB... and you get equal degrees between bearings... bad karma). For me usual distance is 3 to 6 MAYBE 7 km (depends on weather, type of a torpedo, time of a day/night, visibility and generally combination of all these factors). Everything above 7 km is a shot with 50% of pure luck if you are firing single torpedo... salvo is a different story... chance of a hit grows exponentially with every additional torpedo. But that's a waste of ammo in my humble opinion... I did scored hits at 11 km... but that was clear, perfectly calm sea at night with moonlight and the large target (HMS Hood)... task force was announced trough contact report so I did have time to position myself nicely and prepare the attack... there was a few more cases but that was pure luck... __________________ Come closer... and die.

08-07-12, 07:59 PM	#1
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,690 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	The problem with long range shots was something I pondered when I played SH2. I was looking for a way to get the targets without having Superman, the X Men and the A Team onboard those Marvel Comics destroyers racing towards me wherever I was within medium range. IIRC, the graphics didn't allow for much sniping but now that I am able to identify ships at greater ranges I might have a chance. I have only succeeded one or two times before in SH3 at 10,000 metres or so and only at high resolution but I had no good idea of why it couldn't be done a bit more consistently. A few things are certain. At those ranges I'm dealing with fractions of degrees and 1/10th's of a knot but it can be sorted to a pretty good level. A rough sketch to accompany the first post

08-08-12, 11:21 AM	#3
derrinurban Mate Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Posts: 54 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	To me the hardest part about extreme range attacks was the ship speed and actually firing the torpedo. The math is the easy part. You can get the ship speed close. You will probably never be 100% accurate but very close. Then you need to time you shot perfectly. Hitting the fire button precisely at the right time is almost impossible. Again you can be close but not perfect. Those fractions of seconds between when you are supposed to hit the button and do and the second for the torpedo to clear the tube make hits at that range lucky at best. IMHO

08-08-12, 04:51 PM	#6
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,690 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	Thanks a ton for the input, you all! This is an attempt to find out if it is at all possible to increase the probability, to find out how much margin for error I actually have, theoretically up against the game and what it allows. Questions are, how much inaccuracy for a 100+ metres ship? How much error can be allowed to hit within 40 metres to either side of centre? And how accurate does the game allow me to be? So far I have found the stationary 4 bearing method by far the best but it does have limitations on accuracy if I disable the hydrophone lines and even they are not telling the true story, sometimes pointing near the engine room, other times near the screws. Without the lines I have to allow for 1 degree error on each bearing and that could mean getting the target course wrong by as much as 10 degrees or even more and reading speed is no better off when I need that much higher accuracy. I am looking at the possibility of using optics at closer range to get more exact bearings but unsure if it can be done within the game, in particular the fact that I can only read a reasonably accurate bearing via the TDC and need to jump to nav map while time is ticking. As for timing the fireing, at those ranges it's impossible to be exact, resolution and how much each pixel is in ship length means I have to eyeball it so there is inaccuracy there. I already have found that surface attacks are right out. Only by staying submerged can I keep the course at a constant heading and even then it takes a bit of rudder to keep it at an exact heading. Submerged, it's manageable but I don't want it worse. Steam torpedos and wake, that is indeed a challenge. What I wonder is how to decrease the probability of them spotting it. Lighting, weather and their crew experience matter but what can be done to maximize the chances there? Reason I wonder is I had ships taking evasive maneuvers at night when my steam torpedos were some 1500 metres away. Just bad luck and the A Team on the bridge? I really would like to know. Outgoing targets, I'm sorry but what do you mean by that? Targets past the fireing angle? I depend on target keeping a constant heading and speed. Without that, I don't think I could guaranty a hit at 400 metres let alone at 10,000 metres.

08-08-12, 09:06 PM	#7
Hinrich Schwab Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 908 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 0	I rely on the Fast-90 method for all of my shots. However, the range comes into play at point-blank (< 500m/yds) and at extreme range (> 7000m/yds). I did some long calcs a while back and the float is only +/- 1.5 degrees. No big deal at point-blank, but the extra 1.5 degrees does matter at extreme range. Using ATAN (Target Speed/Torp Speed) to determine lead angle, subtract the 1.5 degree float for starboard-to-port targets and add the 1.5 float for port-to-starboard targets. My hit rate is around 75%, taking into account dud rates, possible aspect changes from the target and general weirdness. My longest range hit and kill is around 9km.