Florida man kills door-to-door salesman: I’ll kill anybody that steps on my property"

CaptainHaplo · 07-28-12, 02:01 PM

Comparing legal gun ownership and gun crime in the US is comparing apples to oranges and is a tactic often used by gun control proponents. The majority of gun crimes are committed with illegally acquired firearms.

If you look at the number of gun crimes committed by people who legally own the firearms used compared to the total number of gun crimes, guess what. It is NOT the legal gun owner that presents much danger.

Does the occasional knucklehead exist? Sure. But if gun ownership and carry was ENCOURAGED, the occasional crazy would have a self-preservation interest to keep from going of "half cocked". The tragedy in Colorado is a perfect example - 12 dead and 58 injured. Had even 2 or 3 people been armed in theatre 9, it would still be a tragedy - but you might have had 3 victims dead and one perpetrator pushing up daises. It would still have been a tragedy, but not nearly so bad of one.

If you don't think self preservation is a strong motivator for even crazies, remember that the accused shooter in Colorado invested in and wore a protective vest......

mookiemookie · 07-28-12, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

The tragedy in Colorado is a perfect example - 12 dead and 58 injured. Had even 2 or 3 people been armed in theatre 9, it would still be a tragedy - but you might have had 3 victims dead and one perpetrator pushing up daises. It would still have been a tragedy, but not nearly so bad of one.

If everyone in that dark, panicked and smoke/gas filled theatre had a gun and started shooting, I think it would have turned out much worse than it did.

NeonSamurai · 07-28-12, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If everyone in that dark, panicked and smoke/gas filled theatre had a gun and started shooting, I think it would have turned out much worse than it did.

No kidding, a bunch of panicked people with guns in a low visibility situation not knowing who is the bad guy is? I see that going real well.

Also last I checked the vast majority of guns on the street came from legal sources, like purchased from gun fairs in states where the laws are not so strict, then resold in other states. These guns are not being smuggled in across the border...

CaptainMattJ. · 07-28-12, 03:54 PM

Wella ban on guns wouldnt help, even though wed like to think it does, putting a ban on the sale of 100 round magazines might be something to consider. No one, NO ONE needs 100 rounds in any kind of civilian setting. For Anything. On the gun range, out hunting,for personal defense, nothing requires 100 rounds. Yet its perfectly legal. in fact, its legal to buy just about any weapon you please. grenade launchers, miniguns, flamethrowers,grenades. You can even get 40mm bofors if you have some serious paperwork, as a CIVILIAN. Who in gods name needs a 40mm Bofor for personal civilian use. that gun could potentially be hauled to a location to strafe something like a school yet its still legally possible to obtain one. A pistol, shotgun, or rifle is on thing. an anti aircraft weapon that can fling 40mm high velocity rounds at serious range, is another.

Gargamel · 07-28-12, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If everyone in that dark, panicked and smoke/gas filled theatre had a gun and started shooting, I think it would have turned out much worse than it did.

That's why he said 2-3 people. Thats a good percentage to help prevent that type of event.

These crazies usually have some sort of exit strategy, which usually involves getting out of there before the cops get there.

But if they know that about 5%-10% are carryIng, and will return fire, then they may not even plan these things.

Skybird · 07-28-12, 05:02 PM

Over the years, I read too many contradictory statistics as if I would be willng to see a causal, linear link anymore like "more guns, more liberal gun laws = less crime/more crime", or "less guns, tighter laws = more/less crime". For each such statement, there is a coutnerexample in statistics on nations.

There seem to be a link between two different things, though. There seesm to be a link between what i could not describe any better or different than a cultural or attitude thing towards both weapons and violence - may it be the use of violent means by law enforcement or court penalties, may it be the violence of crime. There are places that have tougher and places that have more lenient gun laws than the US, but for both cases you fiond nations with more and with less crime taking place.

The one characteristic that I see as consistently sticking to US culture, is the fetish for violence: the fascination (military, media, games, films), the fear of it, the acceptance of what in Eurppe is soncosdered munaccpetable topugh court sentences (boot camps, death penalty), the porpagating on behalf of the latter, the violence of anti-abortion protests and the attitude of extremist anti-atheist movements. You cannot escape to claim that in one sens eor the other, the American soceity saeems to be the most violent society of all Western nations, and quite some non-Western nations as well.

That is not meant as US-bashing, but is meant as a sober description like leather trousers belong to Bavaria.

That's why the underlying problem of excesses like this in the US cannot be solved by legislation. It is a cultural problem, an attitude problem, a mentality problem. And this can only be tackled by - education and social developement to redcue the need of street crime. A man who has a perspective in live and can make a living by fair means, has much less incentives to turn into a street robber, than saopmebody who grew up in streets gangs, has no future, and fights to make a monthly living.

The occasional suicide or family drama or crime commited by guns you can never prevent , and to change legislation completely because something happened again, is not needed and does little. Whenever somethjing happens in germany, the public outcry immediately becomes almost hysteric, and everybody yells for tougher laws. But we already havew the toughest laws in Europo, they have been tightened repeatedly in the past 20 years.

The best safety for a gun is - the owner's well-controlled temper, and a good social and education standard.

I see no need currently to - illegally now - get a gun in Germany (to get one legally is a parcours designed to discourage all but the most determined guys now, and you must constantly file the memebership and regular excercising in a passport. If you fail to officially join 18 shooting sessions per year in a registered sports club, you lose your license). - But if I were to move into the US, I would get one.

However, I think that the legal market should only offer hunti ng rifles for hunting and small arms like poiostols and revolvers. Any military, semi-miulitary guns or rifles or automatic or semiautomatic may be nice to wage street war - but that hardly is what protecting your home and your family is about. Else there is no reason why missiles, grenades, mines and cannons shouldn't be owned by private "collectors" as well.

Let'S keep it in perspective. If you think you could face a trigger happy gang with machine guns any time soon, you better move out of the place where you stay, instead of starting an arms race that turns you into a paranoid.

CaptainHaplo · 07-28-12, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If everyone in that dark, panicked and smoke/gas filled theatre had a gun and started shooting, I think it would have turned out much worse than it did.

2 or 3 people are not everyone. If EVERYONE in that theater had been armed - or even had the perp THOUGHT that a high percentage of people were armed, the tragedy would never have occured.

Or do you think he bought and wore ballistic protection for no reason?

07-28-12, 02:01 PM	#1
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,405 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	Comparing legal gun ownership and gun crime in the US is comparing apples to oranges and is a tactic often used by gun control proponents. The majority of gun crimes are committed with illegally acquired firearms. If you look at the number of gun crimes committed by people who legally own the firearms used compared to the total number of gun crimes, guess what. It is NOT the legal gun owner that presents much danger. Does the occasional knucklehead exist? Sure. But if gun ownership and carry was ENCOURAGED, the occasional crazy would have a self-preservation interest to keep from going of "half cocked". The tragedy in Colorado is a perfect example - 12 dead and 58 injured. Had even 2 or 3 people been armed in theatre 9, it would still be a tragedy - but you might have had 3 victims dead and one perpetrator pushing up daises. It would still have been a tragedy, but not nearly so bad of one. If you don't think self preservation is a strong motivator for even crazies, remember that the accused shooter in Colorado invested in and wore a protective vest...... __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

07-28-12, 03:54 PM	#4
CaptainMattJ. The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Sin City Posts: 1,364 Downloads: 55 Uploads: 0	Wella ban on guns wouldnt help, even though wed like to think it does, putting a ban on the sale of 100 round magazines might be something to consider. No one, NO ONE needs 100 rounds in any kind of civilian setting. For Anything. On the gun range, out hunting,for personal defense, nothing requires 100 rounds. Yet its perfectly legal. in fact, its legal to buy just about any weapon you please. grenade launchers, miniguns, flamethrowers,grenades. You can even get 40mm bofors if you have some serious paperwork, as a CIVILIAN. Who in gods name needs a 40mm Bofor for personal civilian use. that gun could potentially be hauled to a location to strafe something like a school yet its still legally possible to obtain one. A pistol, shotgun, or rifle is on thing. an anti aircraft weapon that can fling 40mm high velocity rounds at serious range, is another. __________________ A popular Government without popular information nor the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy or perhaps both. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own Governors must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives - James Madison

07-28-12, 05:02 PM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,830 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Over the years, I read too many contradictory statistics as if I would be willng to see a causal, linear link anymore like "more guns, more liberal gun laws = less crime/more crime", or "less guns, tighter laws = more/less crime". For each such statement, there is a coutnerexample in statistics on nations. There seem to be a link between two different things, though. There seesm to be a link between what i could not describe any better or different than a cultural or attitude thing towards both weapons and violence - may it be the use of violent means by law enforcement or court penalties, may it be the violence of crime. There are places that have tougher and places that have more lenient gun laws than the US, but for both cases you fiond nations with more and with less crime taking place. The one characteristic that I see as consistently sticking to US culture, is the fetish for violence: the fascination (military, media, games, films), the fear of it, the acceptance of what in Eurppe is soncosdered munaccpetable topugh court sentences (boot camps, death penalty), the porpagating on behalf of the latter, the violence of anti-abortion protests and the attitude of extremist anti-atheist movements. You cannot escape to claim that in one sens eor the other, the American soceity saeems to be the most violent society of all Western nations, and quite some non-Western nations as well. That is not meant as US-bashing, but is meant as a sober description like leather trousers belong to Bavaria. That's why the underlying problem of excesses like this in the US cannot be solved by legislation. It is a cultural problem, an attitude problem, a mentality problem. And this can only be tackled by - education and social developement to redcue the need of street crime. A man who has a perspective in live and can make a living by fair means, has much less incentives to turn into a street robber, than saopmebody who grew up in streets gangs, has no future, and fights to make a monthly living. The occasional suicide or family drama or crime commited by guns you can never prevent , and to change legislation completely because something happened again, is not needed and does little. Whenever somethjing happens in germany, the public outcry immediately becomes almost hysteric, and everybody yells for tougher laws. But we already havew the toughest laws in Europo, they have been tightened repeatedly in the past 20 years. The best safety for a gun is - the owner's well-controlled temper, and a good social and education standard. I see no need currently to - illegally now - get a gun in Germany (to get one legally is a parcours designed to discourage all but the most determined guys now, and you must constantly file the memebership and regular excercising in a passport. If you fail to officially join 18 shooting sessions per year in a registered sports club, you lose your license). - But if I were to move into the US, I would get one. However, I think that the legal market should only offer hunti ng rifles for hunting and small arms like poiostols and revolvers. Any military, semi-miulitary guns or rifles or automatic or semiautomatic may be nice to wage street war - but that hardly is what protecting your home and your family is about. Else there is no reason why missiles, grenades, mines and cannons shouldn't be owned by private "collectors" as well. Let'S keep it in perspective. If you think you could face a trigger happy gang with machine guns any time soon, you better move out of the place where you stay, instead of starting an arms race that turns you into a paranoid. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.