German court bans circumcision

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

It isn't hollow. I know plenty of parents that take their 2-year-olds to get their ears pierced. Are the children making that decision? Is this not mulitlation of the ears? Are we not shoving a metal rod through one's earlobe? Is mutilation not mulitlation? Or is your anger now that you see the flaw in your argument through the example of absurdity? Are you unable to see past your own hatred? It is you that jumps through the hoops to make an artificial distinction.

I never heared of any people piercing the ear lobes of their 2 year old. Maybe I live in a too protected and clean and tidy part of the world. And yes, stitching the earslobes of 2 year old is questionable. Seems they want the cuty-cute look for their sugarbabies. Well. That is more about the parents than about the children. And that is never something good, when parents educate their kids not to the kid's welbeing, but the wellbeing of the parents. Becasue kids are not thewir parents' belongings.

But that is not the point anyway. The point is that genital mutilation, the according pain, functional alteration, shame and psychological experience in general, - DO NOT COMPARE TO quick-piercing AN EARLOBE. An earlobe is unsensitivetive, relatively, and the functionality of the ear is not altered at all. So in principle the parents indeed should not pierce their children, yes - but even if they do, it does not compare to genital mutilation.

Or do you compare cutting fingernails to amputating let'S say every third finger...?

Man, come back to your senses. If I get a razorblade and cut you 3 mm deep into your arm, let'S say 3 cm long, a scratch that is, and afterwards I do the same kind of cut to your youknowwhat, I am absolutely certain you will immediately realise the difference in sensational quality.

Better believe me that without trying it out first. I fell into a slope of barbed wire when I was 20, left some marks on my back and side - but that was a pain one could handle. I am certain that a circumcision would feel - less friendly...
Earlobes - I thought I was dreaming when reading that...

[August]

The point is that genital mutilation, the according pain, functional alteration, shame and psychological experience in general

There is so much crap in this statement that it needs a whole roll of toilet paper. Shame and psychological experience indeed.

Unlike some here I'm speaking about something I have personal experience with. I was circumcised at an early age and I know that there is absolutely no shame or psychic trauma or pain involved and my wiener works just fine thank you very much.

It's just another opportunity for Skybird to slam religion but do it this time under cover of a faux concern for the poor little children. Remember this is the guy who advocated assasinating the children of Burmese generals just to teach them a lesson.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I never heared of any people piercing the ear lobes of their 2 year old. Maybe I live in a too protected and clean and tidy part of the world. And yes, stitching the earslobes of 2 year old is questionable. Seems they want the cuty-cute look for their sugarbabies. Well. That is more about the parents than about the children. And that is never something good, when parents educate their kids not to the kid's welbeing, but the wellbeing of the parents. Becasue kids are not thewir parents' belongings.

Okay, then we have determined two things: (1) Two years old is too young for getting ears pierced and (2) parents do not have the an actual right to raise their children according to their beliefs. I would follow up with two questions.

1. How old is old enough for ear piercing? Children and teenagers are impulsive and frequently do not give things rational thought.

2. Since parents are not going to make this decision, who should do it? It clearly cannot be the child until the child reaches majority, so who will serve as surrogate until majority is reached?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Okay, then we have determined two things: (1) Two years old is too young for getting ears pierced and (2) parents do not have the an actual right to raise their children according to their beliefs. I would follow up with two questions.

1. How old is old enough for ear piercing? Children and teenagers are impulsive and frequently do not give things rational thought.

2. Since parents are not going to make this decision, who should do it? It clearly cannot be the child until the child reaches majority, so who will serve as surrogate until majority is reached?

Again I tell you that piercing an earlobe by needle and and mutilating genitals DO NOT COMPARE - no more than fingernail-clipping compares to cutting off the finger. Something in that range.

So the questions you should ask instead, are these:

1. How old is old enough for genital mutilation? - I give you a clue: the law says: piercing (not that earlobe poiercing I mean, but the bigger callibre), tattoos and branding shall not be done to younbg human before they reah ther age of 18. A studio doing itz below that age, gets visits from the police, the parents also get some vistors. It doe snot matter whether they gave written permission or not: teenagers are banned from ordering such services. It is illegal. So what do you think: what is the adequate age for doing soemthing even more serious: circumcision? Younger than for the above things? Or older or the same age? Eh?

2. And the second quesiton you shoudl ask for sure is: sine children are not fit to make a decision for medically non-indicated circumcision, why should the parents make a deicison for medically non-indicated circumcision then? Why not leaving it to the child reaching majority and actually can understand, weigh and judge the pro and contra?

And I would ask you for a personal opinion on yours. What is your verdict on the first article of the German constitution: 1. The dignity of man is untouchable? Do you think that religions shall claim the right to violate it nevertheless? Do harm, do pain to the weak, the small, the innocent? Sentence it to unneeded surgery and pain? If you search the web, you can find many sites on this issue of circumcision where circumcised males remember their experience of the procedure (Muslims get it done later than Jews, and many Americans got it done under local anestesia as adults, for non-religious reasons, becasue it was en vogue). And many report that the weeks of after-pain, during the healing, were painful as hell, and walking was a terrible experience. What allows parents to harm their babies like this, their boys (and their girls, for that matter)? What allows them to violate the dignity of their child to expose it to this, and to accept the risk of medical complications and long-lasting health consequences and a reduced sexual sensitivity that many men report in quesitonairtesd and interviews to feel sorry for? What do you say to the many men that say they regret what had been done to them as boys, and they wioshed they could reverse it - just that they cannot? Isd this the kind of thing parenbts should be allowed to do to children - without any medical need or indication at all?

When you learn that your neighbours abuse, beat, torture or ill-treat their children, what do you do? When you learn they cut off body parts? Or let their children starve, or give them drugs and alcohol, and hand them to foreign men? Do you say: that is their freedom, their business, parents have the right to educate their children like they want and I am not interested, or do you try to find help on what to do about this? Ask the police, the social wellfare, the authorities? And what do the laws in America say on what in Germany is called "unterlassene Hilfeleistung" - denial of assistance? Be advised, in Germany you can earn prison time for denial of assistance, I think up to one year in bad cases, I am not certain. It is a punishable offence for sure. When you know about bad things happening in your neighbours flat, may it be the husband is beating his wife or they are absuing their children, then you can get into trouble if the police can porve that you knew it. In other words: you are in a legal responsibility before the law if you learn about such things. You must not like it. But the law will hold your responsible, if it can - no matter whether you like it. And I think that is generally a good thing by intention.

Let them grow up, gain knowledge and educatiuon so that they can judge and decide by thremselves. If then they say they want to get snibbled, no problem for me. What enrages me is that abvsue of children, and tghe case of relgion once again claiming to have the right to bypass basic rules and the laws of the state, instead being given a special status, special respect, special recognition.

Also, I would like to know how you can justify to be against female genital mutilation, like it is beign campaigned for by the UN and Wetsern states, if you want to allow the same thing beign done do babies and little boys. Female mutilation comes in various forms of practice, some of which are 1:1 equivalent to what is done to males. Why is it okay to do to boy and on behalf of claims made in the name of traditgion and religion, if the same should be banned when done to girls and young women, also in behalf of claimed traditions and religion? That is double standards!

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Again I tell you that piercing an earlobe by needle and and mutlating genitals DO NOLT COMPARE - no more than fingernail-clipping compares to cutting off the finger. Something in that range.

So the questions you should ask instead, are these:

1. How old is old enough for genital mutilation? - I give you a clue: the law says: piercing (not that earlobe poiercing I mean, but the bigger callibre), tattoos and branding shall not be done to younbg human before they reah ther age of 18. A studio doing itz below that age, gets visits from the police, the parents also get some vistors. It doe snot matter whether they gave written permission or not: teenagers are banned from ordering such services. It is illegal. So what do you think: what is the adequate age for doing soemthing even more serious: circumcision? Younger than for the above things? Or older or the same age? Eh?

2. And the second quesiton you shoudl ask for sure is: sine children are not fit to make a decision for medically non-indicated circumcision, why should the parents make a deicison for medically non-indicated circumcision then? Why not leaving it to the child reaching majority and actually can understand, weigh and judge the pro and contra?

And I would ask you for a personal opinion on yours. What is your verdict on the first article of the German constitution: 1. The dignity of man is untouchable? Do you think that religions shall claim the right to violate it nevertheless? Do harm, do pain to the weak, the small, the innocent? Sentence it to unneeded surgery and pain? If you search the web, you can find many sites on this issue of circumcision where circumcised males remember their experience of the procedure (Muslims get it done later than Jews, and many Americans got it done under local anestesia as adults, for non-religious reasons, becasue it was en vogue). And many report that the weeks of after-pain, during the healing, were painful as hell, and walking was a terrible experience. What allows parents to harm their babies like this, their boys (and their girls, for that matter)? What allows them to violate the dignity of their child to expose it to this, and to accept the risk of medical complications and long-lasting health consequences and a reduced sexual sensitivity that many men report in quesitonairtesd and interviews to feel sorry for? What do you say to the many men that say they regret what had been done to them as boys, and they wioshed they could reverse it - just that they cannot? Isd this the kind of thing parenbts should be allowed to do to children - without any medical need or indication at all?

When you learn that your neighbours abuse, beat, torture or ill-treat their children, what do you do? When you learn they cut off body parts? Or let their children starve, or give them drugs and alcohol, and hand them to foreign men? Do you say: that is their freedom, their business, parents have the right to educate their children like they want and I am not interested, or do you try to find help on what to do about this? Ask the police, the social wellfare, the authorities? And what do the laws in America say on what in Germany is called "unterlassene Hilfeleistung" - denial of assistance? Be advised, in Germany you can earn prison time for denial of assistance, I think up to one year in bad cases, I am not certain. It is a punishable offence for sure. When you know about bad things happening in your neighbours flat, may it be the husband is beating his wife or they are absuing their children, then you can get into trouble if the police can porve that you knew it. In other words: you are in a legal responsibility before the law if you learn about such things. You must not like it. But the law will hold your responsible, if it can - no matter whether you like it. And I think that is generally a good thing by intention.

Let them grow up, gain knowledge and educatiuon so that they can judge and decide by thremselves. If then they say they want to get snibbled, no problem for me. What enrages me is that abvsue of children, and tghe case of relgion once again claiming to have the right to bypass basic rules and the laws of the state, instead being given a special status, special respect, special recognition.

You ducked my questions and proceeded with yet more doublespeak. I call shenanigans. Although, to be honest, I am not surprised.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

You ducked my questions and proceeded with yet more doublespeak. I call shenanigans. Although, to be honest, I am not surprised.

No, you made a totally absurd comparison. Earlobe piercing by a needle - to full cutting off parts of the genitals with massive nervous tissue damage, pain, weeks of serious more poain, psychological consequences, possible traumatization.

If you need to point fingers at somebody, then point it to yourself for a totally absurd - and I say: idiotic - comparsion.

It does not compare at all and thus your constructed case that bases on this idiotic and totally misled comparison does not deserve recognition as something that must must or should be given serious consideration. I would make myself hilarious if I would do that.

Consequently, I refuse to comply.

Maybe should come over and ram a needle into your earlobe, and then cutting off what there is to be cut off at your Willy'S tip, then you would realise what a bogus argument you try to set up. It would be a case of true and sudden enlightment, no doubt.

Dissappointing, Tak. I expect better standards from you.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

No, you made a totally absurd comparison. Earlobe piercing by a needle - to full cutting off parts of the genitals with massive nervous tissue damage, pain, weeks of serious more poain, psychological consequences, possible traumatization.

If you need to point fingers at somebody, then point it to yourself for a totally absurd - and I say: idiotic - comparsion.

It does not compare at all and thus your constructed case that bases on this idiotic and totally misled comparison does not deserve recognition as something that must must or should be given serious consideration. I would make myself hilarious if I would do that.

Consequently, I refuse to comply.

Maybe should come over and ram a needle into your earlobe, and then cutting off what there is to be cut off at your Willy'S tip, then you would realise what a bogus argument you try to set up. It would be a case of true and sudden enlightment, no doubt.

Dissappointing, Tak. I expect better standards from you.

You made the comparison yourself, so you can take that finger and turn it right back at you. All I did was show you the inevitable end of this slippery slope that you are so eager to push us down. I am glad that I don't like in your personal utopia, Skybird. It sounds like a truly frightening place.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

You made the comparison yourself, so you can take that finger and turn it right back at you. All I did was show you the inevitable end of this slippery slope that you are so eager to push us down. I am glad that I don't like in your personal utopia, Skybird. It sounds like a truly frightening place.

So I have written your post #181. Hear, hear.

Takeda, you set up a strawman argument over earlobe piercing and dressed it into two questions all by yourself, that you set up to give the impression as if their content - earlobe piercing - would in any way be comparable to gential mutilation.

Both do not compare. Not in severity. Not in pain. Not in medical complications possible. Not in rate by which medical complications appear. Not in effects of living quality and the way it gets effected.

And I dare say that most girls ask their parents for permission to get a needle-hole in their earlobe to wear some gem or whatever it is. I scanned the web via google a bit after your statement you knew many parents making the decision to needle their little girls in the earlobe. In the German web, I found little evidence that this is the common way. Most testimonies reported that instead the girls kill their parents' nerves untoil these allow it.

The responsiblity for that hilarious construction you set up as if the two issues compared where comparable at all - this responsibility we leave where it belongs - with you.

Needle your earlobe. Cut off your forsekin with a knife , and frenulum and all that. Then report back and tell us about your experiences. I am certain you will not deal the one for the other anymore. Absolutely certain.

Come back to your senses.

As I said somewhere above, some Catholic private schools in Britain just have forbidden their female students to get injections against cervical cancer.

He just can't stop himself from making up rubbish.

The schools cannot forbid anything of the sort.

The 24 various schools in question out of the thousands out there can regualte to a certain extent what they do in their property on their time.

Since this injection is not compulsory then what is it?
Something parents can decide on for their children
Damn parents making decisions for kids its all wrong I tell ya

Isn't it funny that one of Skybirds regular "oh no its the muslims" newspapers happens to be frequently running a scare campaign against administering this very same vaccination.

Could it be that the Daily Mail says to parents that these cancer vaccinations give your children cancer?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Skybird

When you learn that your neighbours abuse, beat, torture or ill-treat their children, what do you do? When you learn they cut off body parts?

Whats wrong with you?

[Skybird]

A board member who has choosen not to join the thread nevertheless has sent me this, from 1997.

http://www.menweb.org/svocirc.htm

And some German media reported today and yesterday that there is already a trend observed that in the shadow of the parliament'S attempted crash-course-legalising of boys' circumcision, growing efforts are being run from accoprding lobby groups up to the level of the WHO and the UNHRC to legalise female circumcision in full, too. That is bad news. In Germany, some media pointed out that there is concern over the dignity of girls being violated when being subjected to the procedure. It gets asked if boys have no such dignity thta must be protected, then.

Well. That questions stands.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Skybird

http://www.menweb.org/svocirc.htm

It is worth remembering that the two developed countries in which circumcision is most widely practiced, Israel and the United States, have what many consider to be two of the most violent governments in the world. On a criminal level, we are probably the most violent developed country. Research has suggested that these facts are connected and not simple coincidence

What...you people losing it.