Lifeguard fired for having rescued drowning man

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Since Star Trek has already been tied in with this, I have to relate a very well-written piece of fiction. Part of the novelization of The Wrath Of Khan includes a classroom debate between Admiral Kirk and Lieutenant Savik. The question involve a lifeboat with not enough room, and who should be saved and who left behind. Savik insists that Star Fleet officers should be saved, because they are vital and trained personel are hard to replace. Kirk has to remind her that their whole purpose for existing is to protect the civilian populace, and saving themselves while leaving others behind is the one thing they must never do.

Bottom line is that I agree - if your purpose for having a job is to save lives, then saving a life is more important than anything else, including the possibility of losing another life, especially when it is nothing more than a possibility.

[Redloc]

Its simply an HR issue. He should be praised of course, but the company must have its employees follow its rules, and it must show consistency in its response.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Since Star Trek has already been tied in with this, I have to relate a very well-written piece of fiction. Part of the novelization of The Wrath Of Khan includes a classroom debate between Admiral Kirk and Lieutenant Savik. The question involve a lifeboat with not enough room, and who should be saved and who left behind. Savik insists that Star Fleet officers should be saved, because they are vital and trained personel are hard to replace. Kirk has to remind her that their whole purpose for existing is to protect the civilian populace, and saving themselves while leaving others behind is the one thing they must never do.

I remember that scene from the book. For some reason, I LOVED the Star Trek novels by Vonda N. McIntyre, ST2, where the mentioned scene is from, I have read several times both in German and English. I still own them.

Another great ST novel is "Spock'S world".

Time to brag a bit : over 20 years ago, I even wrote a ST novel myself, set in the time between the movies ST5 and ST6. It was entitled Blutsschatten, got distributed via the German fandom, and was done on an Amiga 500 with 1 MB RAM and with Beckertext word processor where I had to load every chapter individually, since the RAM did not hold more pages than that: the novel had some 600 pages in normal book format. - It was not good enough to consider a professional release, but for a fan's work it was nice, I think, and had a good reputation for some short years in the fandom. I wrote several different things, but no other work I enjoyed to do as much as this one. It was great fun to write, although I needed to write almost one half of it two times, and parts of that even three times, to delete inconsistencies emerging when ST6 finally came to the cinemas.

Bragging over. It was a fan's fun. I know some people here are pro writers, I do not wish to compare it with their standards, of course. I wrote only two things that I had indeed considered for publication, a short novel of 90 pages named Picknick in Avalone, a story of self-discovery of a young British women after WWI into which i also injected a hommage to Ray Bradbury, and a re-translation of the Tao Te King.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Skybird

... Time to brag a bit : over 20 years ago, I even wrote a ST novel myself, set in the time between the movies ST5 and ST6. It was entitled Blutsschatten, got distributed via the German fandom, and was done on an Amiga 500 with 1 MB RAM and with Beckertext word processor where I had to load every chapter individually, since the RAM did not hold more pages than that: the novel had some 600 pages in normal book format. - It was not good enough to consider a professional release, but for a fan's work it was nice, I think, and had a good reputation for some short years in the fandom. I wrote several different things, but no other work I enjoyed to do as much as this one. It was great fun to write, although I needed to write almost one half of it two times, and parts of that even three times, to delete inconsistencies emerging when ST6 finally came to the cinemas. ...

Where can I find its English language edition?

Sci-Fi fan forever!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

Where can I find its English language edition?

I don't volunteer for that job.

Watch yourself. It's a long fall.

Firstly take a look at terms and conditions applicable to the specific laws you are trying to throw around willy nilly.
If you are unable to then retire from the debate for being clueless then so be it.
If however you are ready to enter debate on the subject please explain how the terms of employment and conditions of employment rules do not apply in the arguemetnt you are trying to establish in regards to the proceedure and the laws covering itas the legal example you cite allows for those terms and conditions.....simple isn't it.

Fired lifeguard gets key to city! I believe dessenting opinion would indicate he did the correct thing despite company policy.

No that implies public consensus based on ignorance and media stories. How many people on this forum have claimed he saved a life by rescueing someone from the sea?

I think the final argument that the firing was wrong is in the article Tribesman linked himself.

Quote:

@steve
No that arguement is that the private company caved to totally uninformed public opinion, in terms of life saving that arguement has absolutely no validity.

There is only one proper way to act in situation like this...that is to save life.

terms and conditions apply MH
which if you look at any of the real laws Tak tries to use through google they are well catered for as its a serious issue

@ AVG

No sir, the terms of employment are only partial of the discussion.

No the duty to rescue ("good samaritan") not good samaritan is entirely dependant on terms and conditions relating to employment.
It is the purpose of the law.
@Krnznji

Hard to say as I don't know that town.

It reinforces the point(I happened to be having dinner with that sergeant this evening) procesesess have to be followed as life saving is a bloody risky business.
At no point and under no circumstances should any beach lifeguard even consider the rescue I outlined and any that abandoed their post is guilty of gross neliigence of duty. any guadai or any fireman not designated trained and equipped for water rescue is likewise screwed. the RNLI are likewise contained as unless they can beat the designated police or fire service up river onshore then their job is to cover past the bottom bridge in the lifeboat for recovery.

Its a bit hard to discuss about this case based on news articles as they seem to be describing different incident.

Its the same incident but many people seem to be argueng for a fictional incident where they are getting an emotional angle on it

Hard to say as I don't know that town.

I chose that as it is a good example, I could have picked a dozen other examples without going past Silver Strand any of which comes down to really bloody basic stuff, slack tide at Spanish Arch is another classic lesson which can easily be applied worldwide for Lifeguards or any other competant person.

Let me restate my position for anyone like Tak who missed it by a mile.
As a person Lopez did an action that may be justifiable even tough he didn't save a life and didn't rescue any one.
As a lifeguard he screwed up big time with no justification and has no recourse apart from the public opinion and bad publicity from people that don't understand what a life guard is.
Some people are letting their emotions rule their minds, I can undertand that on a snap decision but it doesn't make it right.

[Takeda Shingen]

I don't think that we're talking about the same thing anymore, Tribesman. Missed it by a mile indeed. You'll figure it out, but I am afriad it will be too late by that point. I hope I am wrong.

It's not your argument. It's not that you are right. It is the style of argument that you engage in. It's the emoticon spam and petty insults designed to inflame that are the problem. It's labeling people's efforts as pathetic that is the problem. To be totally honest with you, you're on pretty thin ice on this forum. You really need to keep the barbs and elbows out and the content in. Your content is always good. We could just use a whole lot less of the former.

Peace to you.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

@steve
No that arguement is that the private company caved to totally uninformed public opinion, in terms of life saving that arguement has absolutely no validity.

When everyone disagrees with you, including the owner of the company, maybe it's time to admit that just once you might be wrong.

Let me restate my position for anyone like Tak who missed it by a mile.

No one missed anything. We simply agree that you are so tied up in the letter of the law that you're missing the spirit.

As a person Lopez did an action that may be justifiable even tough he didn't save a life and didn't rescue any one.

He had no way of knowing that. Someone pleaded for helped and he tried to help.

Conversely, while the company had the right to take the action they did, they were wrong to do so.

Some people are letting their emotions rule their minds, I can undertand that on a snap decision but it doesn't make it right.

It could equally be argued that you are doing the same. You took a stand, which is good, but now you are clinging to it as if you're afraid to even consider the other side.

When everyone disagrees with you, including the owner of the company, maybe it's time to admit that just once you might be wrong.

Its nothing new for me to be wrong, however I take water safety very seriously and Lopez was wrong to complain about the personal consequences of his actions and the media was wrong to convey his actions as something they were not.
The owner caving in due to public opinion sends out a worse message about his company than the initial dismissal does.

We simply agree that you are so tied up in the letter of the law that you're missing the spirit.

The spirit of the law is to make it clear when the letter of the other laws can be seen as contradictory. It is why it is totally different for Lifeguards in comnparison to police fire or ambulance crews.

I don't think that we're talking about the same thing anymore, Tribesman

It all hinges on those two words in post #11, personal consequences.
Likewise with your following post, he wasn't acting like a lifeguard, he was acting like a decent member of the public.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Penguin

A non related question about Finnish jurisdiction: As you are a bilingual country and no translation is ever 100% exact. Do you know any cases where a defendant argued to use the law in one specific language - as there may be tiny differences in phrasing?

Forgot to answer into this. I haven't heard any of such case. I have no idea what would be done if defendant pointed out such an minor but significant enough difference and at my knowledge there is no statute declaring precedence to either language in case of conflict.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

Forgot to answer into this. I haven't heard any of such case. I have no idea what would be done if defendant pointed out such an minor but significant enough difference and at my knowledge there is no statute declaring precedence to either language in case of conflict.

Thanks for the answer - I had forgotten about the question, either . Just had the idea when I read through the Swedish version of your code.
So I won't have a back door when I choose to become a criminal in Finland.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Thanks for the answer - I had forgotten about the question, either . Just had the idea when I read through the Swedish version of your code.

May I ask which languages you understand?

Originally Posted by Penguin

So I won't have a back door when I choose to become a criminal in Finland.

Unless you kill someone you most likely either get fines, probation (get-out-of-prison-card) or in worst case get short prison sentence. Consider it crash course into Finnish language without distractions from chasing skirts.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

May I ask which languages you understand?

Besides German and English, I understand some Swedish.
I get along in France, learned some Spanish a long time ago, but without training, a language dries out.
I am trying to get the concept behind Finnish (did someone say logic?), but manipulating my brain to be able to do so will probably keep me occupied the rest of my life - with much effort I might be able to say 'perkele' on my death bed

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

Unless you kill someone you most likely either get fines, probation (get-out-of-prison-card) or in worst case get short prison sentence. Consider it crash course into Finnish language without distractions from chasing skirts.

lol, well I would have the fear to be able to attend the course because I am chased by fat Matti who is not into skirts...
If you are a violent criminal, feel welcome in Germany.There may be punishments as severe as getting a lecture, for repeated offenders even with a raised index finger!
Be aware that while damaging persons is fine, don't damage property - or even worse finances. Robbing a bank, or tax fraud are serious offences - better kill someone here.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Besides German and English, I understand some Swedish.
I get along in France, learned some Spanish a long time ago, but without training, a language dries out.
I am trying to get the concept behind Finnish (did someone say logic?), but manipulating my brain to be able to do so will probably keep me occupied the rest of my life - with much effort I might be able to say 'perkele' on my death bed

In Central Finland Central Hospital there is one male nurse who has a bit strange accent in his otherwise clear finnish. He was from Germany and his excuse for moving to Finland and learning finnish was "Naiset". I let you to translate that and figure out what you could do to improve your finnish skills.

Originally Posted by Penguin

lol, well I would have the fear to be able to attend the course because I am chased by fat Matti who is not into skirts...

Just be carefull with soap.

Originally Posted by Penguin

If you are a violent criminal, feel welcome in Germany.There may be punishments as severe as getting a lecture, for repeated offenders even with a raised index finger!
Be aware that while damaging persons is fine, don't damage property - or even worse finances. Robbing a bank, or tax fraud are serious offences - better kill someone here.

It doesn't matter if you steal ***8364;20.00 or ***8364;2,000,000.00 punishment is essentially same but if you commit tax fraud you are the enemy of society #1.

There is one gentleman in finnish prison system who is serving his third life sentence for murder. He killed one person and got his first life sentence. After about 15 years in prison he got paroled. Within a month he was again arrested and convicted of murder. Another about 15 years goes on and he gets paroled again and within one WEEK police again arrest him for murder. Now he is serving his third so called "life sentence" and is "eligible" for customary parole within 10 years. It will be interesting to see to see what will happen next time...

[Platapus]

So Finland does not have any "continued detention" rules like some other countries in Europe?