German court bans circumcision

[MH]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Nevertheless, objective indicators suggest something is being lost. Thus it is an objective wrong, and if we are to hold fast to the principle that ones rights stop where another's begin (with perhaps a narrow mutual-coordination zone), then religion or tradition MUST lose here. How many more foreskins do we have to lose, how many more accidents do we have to suffer while waiting for the zeitgeist to move up.

The background means something....in theory you are correct in practice very few seem to mind.
If religion or tradition must lose is not for you to decide it a matter of people involved in this.
I don't think that turning the issue into some sort of crusade will do much good.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by MH

The background means something....in theory you are correct in practice very few seem to mind.
If religion or tradition must lose is not for you to decide it a matter of people involved in this.
I don't think that turning the issue into some sort of crusade will do much good.

I don't think wishing for a righteous law to stand is exactly a crusade...

I think that "very few" seem to mind for two reasons:
1) The prevailing zeitgeist, which makes getting clipped feel normal (perhaps even more normal than not getting clipped).
2) The fact it was lost so long ago means they don't know what they are losing out on. They say they don't feel they are losing but the fact is they can't know.

Yet the fact that objective loss occurs suggests that perhaps it is about time to stop any new circumcisions for anything but medical reasons (of at least the severity that would motivate the cutting out of an appendix).

Originally Posted by joegrundman

The important thing is this: Germany is AGAIN outlawing the practice of Judaism.

This is not a message that Germany wants to make. Believe me, I mean Germany well, and Germany just cannot be the one to decide this. It will work out badly for Germany.

When I read the news, I had similar thoughts. On the other hand, you can't always choose where your battle takes place, and I hope Germany holds firm on this.

If the Jews do play the cards as you suggest, I finally understand why Japan sticks firm to the position that things settled by treaty are done. People always say the solution to the Far East history problem is for Japan to make Germany style apologies complete with Germany style compensations. But here we see it. No matter how many apologies you make or how sincere they are, people never are satisfied even if they formally accept. Aggress them even once, even on something that you are in the right on, and they drag everything back out of the history bin to emotion-load the argument in their favor.

At some point, you have to stop letting apologies and history keep pulling youa round the nose.

Or perhaps the Jews can prove me wrong here by not playing that card. I understand they have to throw a temper tantrum first but when they are done perhaps they can take the chance to accept that their practices have to evolve with the times.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

I don't think wishing for a righteous law to stand is exactly a crusade...

I think that "very few" seem to mind for two reasons:
1) The prevailing zeitgeist, which makes getting clipped feel normal (perhaps even more normal than not getting clipped).
2) The fact it was lost so long ago means they don't know what they are losing out on. They say they don't feel they are losing but the fact is they can't know.

Yet the fact that objective loss occurs suggests that perhaps it is about time to stop any new circumcisions for anything but medical reasons (of at least the severity that would motivate the cutting out of an appendix).
.

What can i tell...highly intelligent people are for circumcision...many no less than you and probably some a lot more.
We can think for our selves about that silly matter......all cosidered!

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

When I read the news, I had similar thoughts. On the other hand, you can't always choose where your battle takes place, and I hope Germany holds firm on this.

If the Jews do play the cards as you suggest, I finally understand why Japan sticks firm to the position that things settled by treaty are done. People always say the solution to the Far East history problem is for Japan to make Germany style apologies complete with Germany style compensations. But here we see it. No matter how many apologies you make or how sincere they are, people never are satisfied even if they formally accept. Aggress them even once, even on something that you are in the right on, and they drag everything back out of the history bin to emotion-load the argument in their favor.

At some point, you have to stop letting apologies and history keep pulling youa round the nose.

Or perhaps the Jews can prove me wrong here by not playing that card. I understand they have to throw a temper tantrum first but when they are done perhaps they can take the chance to accept that their practices have to evolve with the times.

It's not about playing cards and temper tantrums, and Germany most certainly can choose whether to have this battle.

But it is not about religion.

But it is for some people.
You only have to look at the background.
For some people this is a chance to attack a religion or all religion, for others it is a chance to defend their religion or someone elses.
What is more disturbing in the background is some of the really nasty groups which latch on to the wider debate.

[AngusJS]

You don't own your children. The only body that you own is your own.

Feel free to snip, pierce and tattoo yourself to your hearts content, for whatever reason. Don't force the same on your children.

"But it's part of my tradition/religion." Yes, it's part of your tradition or religion. Your child knows nothing of your ideology, and cannot accept or reject it.

If these traditions or religions are so important, why do people insist on cheapening them by physically forcing children to join them? Wouldn't the religion/tradition be more meaningful if its followers actually chose to follow it of their own free will?

How arrogant do you have to be, to be certain that not only were you lucky enough to join/be forced to join the correct religion, but that your child will eventually see just how correct your religion is, too? Maybe, just maybe, what works for you won't work for them. Maybe they should follow their own conscience and choose the path that makes sense to them.

Don't force a permanent change in your child's body to be in line with your ideology, when you know that he might wish that he had been able to choose for himself, rather than have it imposed upon him.

This is so blindingly obvious, but yet again religion keeps creating problems like this which otherwise would have been solved and forgotten ages ago.

[MH]

The problem is in your eyes because you want it to be a problem.

(another secular guy who thinks that just by being secular and uncircumcised somehow makes him more advanced and Nobel prize nominate)

You don't own your children. The only body that you own is your own.

Oy vey

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by MH

Right... OK we are in the copy paste Internet bull stage....just look for something to paste that contradict your claims.

Oh, pardon us for backing up our claims rather than just sitting trading opinions and fallacies. Such as,

It's about fighting religion nothing more...as much heretic unbeliever as i am i can't agree with your vision of pluralism by wiping out traditions and cultural heritages in pursuit of some sort of tyrannic hegemony...

Poisoning the well, some rather offensive and faulty ad_hominem attacks and a full-blown conspiracy theory, all rolled into one. Could you please stop attacking your debate opponents and focus on actually arguing for your position?

Male circumcision does not affect your rights does not hurt anyone and the "victims" have no regrets so stop all this mantra about child abuse.

Stop lying. There's plenty of cicumcized people out there who wished the procedure had not been performed on them. They exist no matter how much people like you try to convince each others that they don't.

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Just want to put your mind at ease Skybird and let you and The First International Symposium on Circumcision know that my foreskinless penis works just fine and I am extremely pleased with its performance. Oh, and my wife who calls it 'Sparticus' can attest that it keeps her VERY happy too. If you dont believe me I can have pictures sent for you and your fellow professionals at the U.N. to ogle over.

You do know anecdotes are worthless as evidence, right?

The big picture, with apologies to those of you who prefer we don't post facts in here:


Source:http://www.davidwilton.com/files/mc-and-sexual-function---denmark-2011.pdf(Male circumcision and sexual function in men
and women: a survey-based, cross-sectional
study in Denmark. 2011).

I halfway expect you to pretend studies like this don't exist either, just like you pretend no one ever object to having their penises circumcized in infanthood.

Don't force a permanent change in your child's body to be in line with your ideology, when you know that he might wish that he had been able to choose for himself, rather than have it imposed upon him.

This is so blindingly obvious, but yet again religion keeps creating problems like this which otherwise would have been solved and forgotten ages ago.

A great summary of our side's view. Good job.

The sentence today gained the force of law and became legally valid, after the prosecutor saw no chance for success in an appeal and thus folded over that option. A revision now is no longer possible.

Yay!

[MH]

Of course, for the three desert dogmas that want a submissive, obedient, dependant, stupid crowd of sheep that is not educated enough and intellectually uncapable to question clerics' motives and powerpolitical interests , this is a nightmare scenario, and that is why they so bitterly agitate against it. They even killed, and still kill over it.

Where there are no sheep, there would be no need for a shepard

I'm not quite sure who is who.... but congratulations.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

You don't own your children. The only body that you own is your own.

Feel free to snip, pierce and tattoo yourself to your hearts content, for whatever reason. Don't force the same on your children.

"But it's part of my tradition/religion." Yes, it's part of your tradition or religion. Your child knows nothing of your ideology, and cannot accept or reject it.

If these traditions or religions are so important, why do people insist on cheapening them by physically forcing children to join them? Wouldn't the religion/tradition be more meaningful if its followers actually chose to follow it of their own free will?

How arrogant do you have to be, to be certain that not only were you lucky enough to join/be forced to join the correct religion, but that your child will eventually see just how correct your religion is, too? Maybe, just maybe, what works for you won't work for them. Maybe they should follow their own conscience and choose the path that makes sense to them.

Don't force a permanent change in your child's body to be in line with your ideology, when you know that he might wish that he had been able to choose for himself, rather than have it imposed upon him.

This is so blindingly obvious, but yet again religion keeps creating problems like this which otherwise would have been solved and forgotten ages ago.

Well said, AngusJS.

[August]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

Don't force a permanent change in your child's body to be in line with your ideology, when you know that he might wish that he had been able to choose for himself, rather than have it imposed upon him.

This is so blindingly obvious, but yet again religion keeps creating problems like this which otherwise would have been solved and forgotten ages ago.

And yet most atheists, at least the ones on this board, seem to have absolutely no problem with drugging a child to delay the onset of puberty in order to provide more time to convince it that the gender they were born with is somehow wrong and should be changed, by surgery, before they reach adulthood. Others have no problem with piercing the ears of infants but I guess it all depends on which ideology you subscribe to.

Personally I have no problem with the procedure. Had it done to me soon after I was born and believe me it's no big deal.

[MH]

Me...each time i look at my dick have irresistible urge to become religious fanatic...cant help it...otherwise i would consider being Swedish.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by August

And yet most atheists, at least the ones on this board, seem to have absolutely no problem with drugging a child to delay the onset of puberty in order to provide more time to convince it that the gender they were born with is somehow wrong and should be changed, by surgery, before they reach adulthood. Others have no problem with piercing the ears of infants but I guess it all depends on which ideology you subscribe to.

Personally I have no problem with the procedure. Had it done to me soon after I was born and believe me it's no big deal.

[VipertheSniper]

Originally Posted by August

And yet most atheists, at least the ones on this board, seem to have absolutely no problem with drugging a child to delay the onset of puberty in order to provide more time to convince it that the gender they were born with is somehow wrong and should be changed, by surgery, before they reach adulthood. Others have no problem with piercing the ears of infants but I guess it all depends on which ideology you subscribe to.

Personally I have no problem with the procedure. Had it done to me soon after I was born and believe me it's no big deal.

You conviniently leave out that those discussion weren't about all children, but those with disorders of sex differentiation.

[MH]

@joegrundman question is why this should be an issue for debate since it is no more that purely theoretical mantra when taking into account the health risk or you know...the million $ i might miss.
It certainly not worth pushing it on any one besides possibly satisfying people who have nothing to do with it and seem very ignorant about the prosiger ...or maybe some others who might want some minorities out of Germany...which is another issue or maybe not.