German court bans circumcision

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I was circumcised at my parents request, Im perfectly fine.

Jerks

As are most people, but at the age of 18, 21, 30, 40 would you choose to have it done if not for a purely medical reason?

Nice sign off, by the way.

[Skybird]

Herr Berbunch, that is exactly the point that I often have on my mind when being confronted with some religious claim or practice that is aimed at the young, weak, defenceless ones: children. Would people will to do when they are grown-up adults what they have been forced to do while they were little kids? And mind you, mutilation is a one-way street only, there is no reversing possible.

For relgious reasons, children are not left a later choice. rElious mitives denies them the right to make a free choice later, when theya are grown up and adult enough to actually form opinion by themselves and make decisions by their own. If people want to snibble thewir gentials when they are adults, I cannot care less. When people do that to helpless children that simply get forced, I have a problem with it. Like I have with raping children or beating up children or letting starve children as well.

Parents are responsible for their children. That does not mean they own them, or that they are their possessions. Parents are not owners, they are somebody with a duty to care for somebody else until that somebody can take care for himself by his own means.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Parents are responsible for their children. That does not mean they own them, or that they are their possessions. Parents are not owners, they are somebody with a duty to care for somebody else until that somebody can take care for himself by his own means.

here we go..so who's possession are they...yours....the state's...the politicians'?

[antikristuseke]

No-ones, they are the wards of their parents and in some bad cases wards of the state.

[MH]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

No-ones, they are the wards of their parents and in some bad cases wards of the state.

Fine with me....

[joegrundman]

this law is not going to stand. Seriously, anyone here thinks that Germany is going to let a law stand that outlaws jewish practice?

think again. No matter how silly the practice is on the face of it.

It will be dropped, and soon.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

As are most people, but at the age of 18, 21, 30, 40 would you choose to have it done if not for a purely medical reason?

Nice sign off, by the way.

Its something that doesnt concern me really as the procedure has been done already. I have no animosity towards my parents or for their descion concerning my well being when I was a child. They didnt take anything from me that I want back. But frankly knowing what I know and where my faith lay, yes my desire would be for circumcision if I wasnt already.

As I said I personally have no resentment for the decsion my parents made. What I find odd and irks me a bit is that there are some nosey busy bodies here that do.

[Skybird]

By that logic of yours - the deed is done, so get over it - you can screw all law enforcement. The crime is done, so why the noise?

It is not about you and your past. It is about those children today and the freedom to choose that now or in the future gets taken away from them - or is bein g left to them so that thy can choose by their own decision when they are grown up.

Why I care? For the same reason why i care when children in my neighbourhood would get beaten up by parents, or would get hurt by their parents, of would get abused.

If you do not understand that, you would just illustrate the kind of egoist desinterest that is so very much modern today and that time and again gets brought to new heights if this kind of coldhearted desinterest is founded on religious rules and thoughts. Nothing beats the the inhumanity and mercilessness that religion shows when it comes to enforcing its morals on people. "The maximum of possible cruelty is still not enoiugh for the enemies of my God". "Whatever hit you in suffering and pain, it serves oyu right for you do not follow the will of my God." "You do not believe in my God, so we pull you into the light of the purifying fire."

I do not care much for babies getting baptised, it is just water and a ritual that causes nothing, done in a round of adults who still got stuck in the superstitiuon of even pre-medieval eras. I got baptised, too, but who cares? There is no watermark on my forehead, nor is anyone in the family caring for such magical stauff anymore - I made them all turning their back on the church.

But circumcision is somethign else, here damage gets done, physcial injury that is irreversible. That is what separates a superstitious but harmless watershow that takes itself way too serious but beyond that does not cause effect, from a crime. And a crime is what it is when you physically or mentally abuse or violate children, pupills (=Schutzbefohlene).

IMO it just adds another argument against religions that there is no moral outcry amongst them over this kind of abuse. If the same thing would be done to children without referring the deed to a religious cult, law enforcement immediately would get engaged and prosecute the parents and the person carrying out the deed.

[Sailor Steve]

I always thought the reason for hospitals doing it was medical, not religious, and I'm not sure how much damage is really done. It looks to me like a bit of overreaction, I don't have a real opinion one way or another on this yet, so that's all I'm going to say.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I always thought the reason for hospitals doing it was medical, not religious, and I'm not sure how much damage is really done. It looks to me like a bit of overreaction, I don't have a real opinion one way or another on this yet, so that's all I'm going to say.

it is done in hospitals because it is more hygienic and safer than people doing it in less regulated conditions (ie in ceremonies done at home).

only very rarely is circumcision done for direct medical reasons, although people do say all sorts of nonsense about "better hygiene" etc. to justify circumcision.

It is done for religious/cultural/traditional reasons in almost all cases

as for how much damage is done - i'd say it's less than losing your little toe, but more than having your fingernails cut.


In any case most of Skybird's argumentation is missing his primary problem.

Germany is going to drop this law. The question is, how much of a fuss do you wish to make before this happens?

It does not look good for Germany to be making this sort of law, and you can either drop this law pronto while making it clear that this was some sort of weird judicial aberration .. or you can wait until the maelstrom kicks up with Jewish groups in Israel and the USA joining in and start saying unpleasant things.

I recommend you take the first option and drop it quickly and be glad for the triumph of common sense.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by joegrundman

it is done in hospitals because it is more hygienic and safer than people doing it in less regulated conditions (ie in ceremonies done at home).

only very rarely is circumcision done for direct medical reasons, although people do say all sorts of nonsense about "better hygiene" etc. to justify circumcision.

Okay. I'm not sure I understand, but that may be because it was done to me despite the fact that neither of my parents were believers. I just thought it was considered routine.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Okay. I'm not sure I understand, but that may be because it was done to me despite the fact that neither of my parents were believers. I just thought it was considered routine.

well...ok...there was a time when the medical establishment in various western parts decided it was cleaner to be circumcised, and that one was less prone to infections. It is now considered nonsense.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by joegrundman

it is done in hospitals because it is more hygienic and safer than people doing it in less regulated conditions (ie in ceremonies done at home).

only very rarely is circumcision done for direct medical reasons, although people do say all sorts of nonsense about "better hygiene" etc. to justify circumcision.

It is done for religious/cultural/traditional reasons in almost all cases

as for how much damage is done - i'd say it's less than losing your little toe, but more than having your fingernails cut.


In any case most of Skybird's argumentation is missing his primary problem.

Germany is going to drop this law. The question is, how much of a fuss do you wish to make before this happens?

It does not look good for Germany to be making this sort of law, and you can either drop this law pronto while making it clear that this was some sort of weird judicial aberration .. or you can wait until the maelstrom kicks up with Jewish groups in Israel and the USA joining in and start saying unpleasant things.

I recommend you take the first option and drop it quickly and be glad for the triumph of common sense.

That you wish for the third time now that Germany skips this law, and that you even demand it and threaten with those Jewish lobby groups in the US (last time I mentioned them it was denied that they even exist...), does not mean that it will happen so easily, or at all. chances are 50:50 that it will hold on n ational court levels, and what the European cpouret says, I do not predict - the EU recently decided that it wants to form a tough front against female circumcision.

But you live in a country (US, I assume) that even seriously argues that scientology is no commerce company selling slavery, but seriously considers it to be a religion, giving it full religious priviliges, tax evasion, and immunity from laws. So who do you demand to take that sende rof the message serious? The US govenrment has repeatedly demanded ermany and other Eiuroppean nations to recognise scientology as a relgion, and look where it led: we have not, and even have it under close observation by the federal police and the office fore the proteciton of the constitution. As a result, scientology since some years runs dry in Germany, and that is good so.

The same should be done with a campaign to ban religiously motivated physical violence.

It was the second level of the German legal system that gave the sentence today, and it is not binding for all courts in Germany, but it will serve as a precedence that will be considered and taken into account at other courts when such cases gets negotiated. Muslim and Jewish groups threaten to go to the highets European court to defend their precious little hobby of violence against kids. Le thtem. That is the same EU that has released an official proposal that nations should (and some have already) make criticism of religions a punishable crime by declaring all criticism of religion a discrimination. I am certain that man people in this thread love that. Religion cannot defend its claims by facts, arguments and sane reason, so it must be saved from getting put into question - that is the logic bewind it.

That is so pitiful.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That you wish for the third time now that Germany skips this law, and that you even demand it and threaten with those Jewish lobby groups in the US (last time I mentioned them it was denied that they even exist...), does not mean that it will happen so easily, or at all. chances are 50:50 that it will hold on n ational court levels, and what the European cpouret says, I do not predict - the EU recently decided that it wants to form a tough front against female circumcision.

But you live in a country (US, I assume) that even seriously argues that scientology is no commerce company selling slavery, but seriously considers it to be a religion, giving it full religious priviliges, tax evasion, and immunity from laws. So who do you demand to take that sende rof the message serious? The US govenrment has repeatedly demanded ermany and other Eiuroppean nations to recognise scientology as a relgion, and look where it led: we have not, and even have it under close observation by the federal police and the office fore the proteciton of the constitution. As a result, scientology since some years runs dry in Germany, and that is good so.

The same should be done with a campaign to ban religiously motivated physical violence.

It was the second level of the German legal system that gave the sentence today, and it is not binding for all courts in Germany, but it will serve as a precedence that will be considered and taken into account at other courts when such cases gets negotiated. Muslim and Jewish groups threaten to go to the highets European court to defend their precious little hobby of violence against kids. Le thtem. That is the same EU that has released an official proposal that nations should (and some have already) make criticism of religions a punishable crime by declaring all criticism of religion a discrimination. I am certain that man people in this thread love that. Religion cannot defend its claims by facts, arguments and sane reason, so it must be saved from getting put into question - that is the logic bewind it.

That is so pitiful.

i'll get back to you on this, sky rl matters have arrived!

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That you wish for the third time now that Germany skips this law, and that you even demand it and threaten with those Jewish lobby groups in the US (last time I mentioned them it was denied that they even exist...), does not mean that it will happen so easily, or at all. chances are 50:50 that it will hold on n ational court levels, and what the European cpouret says, I do not predict - the EU recently decided that it wants to form a tough front against female circumcision.

But you live in a country (US, I assume) that even seriously argues that scientology is no commerce company selling slavery, but seriously considers it to be a religion, giving it full religious priviliges, tax evasion, and immunity from laws. So who do you demand to take that sende rof the message serious? The US govenrment has repeatedly demanded ermany and other Eiuroppean nations to recognise scientology as a relgion, and look where it led: we have not, and even have it under close observation by the federal police and the office fore the proteciton of the constitution. As a result, scientology since some years runs dry in Germany, and that is good so.

The same should be done with a campaign to ban religiously motivated physical violence.

It was the second level of the German legal system that gave the sentence today, and it is not binding for all courts in Germany, but it will serve as a precedence that will be considered and taken into account at other courts when such cases gets negotiated. Muslim and Jewish groups threaten to go to the highets European court to defend their precious little hobby of violence against kids. Le thtem. That is the same EU that has released an official proposal that nations should (and some have already) make criticism of religions a punishable crime by declaring all criticism of religion a discrimination. I am certain that man people in this thread love that. Religion cannot defend its claims by facts, arguments and sane reason, so it must be saved from getting put into question - that is the logic bewind it.

That is so pitiful.

Hi,

firstly I'm not saying that I wish Germany would drop this law (although I do), I am saying that once this arrives in Merkel's in-tray, I'm betting that it's going to be squashed.

secondly, I am not demanding anything, and I am most certainly not threatening you with anything. I am not in a position to make threats since I have no influence with these groups. I am simply saying what I think will happen once the story comes out.

You say that chances are 50:50 that it will hold at the national courts; I think the chances are much lower than that. So if you wish to make a private gentleman's wager with me, at even odds, I will be glad to accept

As for my location, you are wrong, but in any case, it is irrelevant here.

The salient point in this case is that circumcision of newborn males after one week is extremely important in Judaism.

All Jews do this, even the most atheistic ones (and there are many who are atheists), even those who eat pork (and there are quite a few, and not just for salami either). To not circumcise your male child is to signify your intention to abandon Judaism.

Now, you may or may not be right that circumcision is a barbaric practice or whatever. We surely agree that the ill consequences of circumcision are vanishingly minor.

The important thing is this: Germany is AGAIN outlawing the practice of Judaism.

This is not a message that Germany wants to make. Believe me, I mean Germany well, and Germany just cannot be the one to decide this. It will work out badly for Germany.

I generally agree with your efforts to fight the forces of unreason, but you have to pick your battles. Let France, Norway, or better still Israel, be the first land to decide circumcision of infant males is wrong, and let them provoke the debate within Judaism and Islam about the value of this practice. But for Germany to start this debate is deeply unwise, I think.

ciao!