Just curious...

Shkval · 06-08-12, 06:36 AM

How do you plot target's course etc. if you are using real navigation mod? I.e. no own sub icon on the map... is it strictly optical approach or there are some tricks with hydrophone too?

boonie · 06-08-12, 07:43 AM

you will probably need to use a sextant to determine your actual location and then mark it in the nav map..

i have not played that hardcore yet and i am not sure if the sun will give an accurate reading, but i think i have seen some mad that add a sextant (cant remember if thats for sh3/4/5 though.)

edit: opps sorry i thought you meant how to determine where your boat and course is without the autogenerated marking on the map..

unterseemann · 06-08-12, 08:16 AM

If target is not yet visible hydrophon will be the only mean available but you can't have precise data. Once your target is visible yes it's strictly optical approach like it was in real i think.
The first thing is to get target's course: I have a formula which work well, the only unknown thing is AoB and it's easy to determinate from a visual sighting (with training of course!)
Ship's course= uboot course + periscop deviation + 180 +/- AoB*
*If AoB is left you add it
*If AoB is right then you minus it
Sometimes it will be a great number, example uboot course 330, periscop deviation 318 and left AoB 100. So ship's course=330+318+180+100=928. A circle is 360° so real ship's course is 208° (208+360+360) You can adjust the formula if you are at ease: the periscop deviation can be written +318 or -42 and instead adding 180 you can minus 180 due to trigonometric proprieties. So ship's course= 330-42-180+100= 208°
Even if it's not the real course of your target you have a good idea of the target's direction.

I will post a screenshot, more understandable i think...

Then estimate distance, speed...

Shkval · 06-08-12, 09:42 AM

Thanks for info, nice formulas...it must pretty hard to get close enough when radar comes into game... you can't be on surface - they see you, you can't be submerged they see your periscope also... hell on earth... no wonder that they lost the battle for Atlantic... and how do you manage to measure your position with sextant during months of (SH 3 buggy) bad weather without sun or stars? I would be lost after 5 days and one chase of a ship...

sublynx · 06-08-12, 10:44 AM

If you like geometry you might like to read the United States Navy Maneuvering Board Manual from 1941. You can download it from:

http://archive.org/details/maneuveringboard00unit

Pages 22 - 23 are the most important. The methods described in the manual are usable in SH3.

One can even use these methods with hydrophone bearings, but it is very time consuming and basically cheating, because real life hydrophones weren't as accurate as these simulation hydrophones.

If this approach feels too theoretical, you might want to try Hitman's Kriegsmarine whizz-wheel, which is great fun too.

Shkval · 06-08-12, 11:31 AM

Ok, ok, guys I'm not so hardcore... maybe I will be some day... right now I'm on manual targeting without map contacts update... using the hydrophone A LOT... I can imagine how it would be like without this little icon representing my sub... did anyone survived the war with these hardcore mods? Real navigation... 100% realism... GWX 3.0 gold... IRAI destroyers... seems impossible...

sublynx · 06-08-12, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkval

did anyone survived the war with these hardcore mods? Real navigation... 100% realism... GWX 3.0 gold... IRAI destroyers... seems impossible...

I think some have survived. Not me though, the furthest I have ever managed to stay alive, is late 1943.

Pisces · 06-13-12, 03:44 PM

If you want to plot target positions and it's course, but not do those maneuvering board techniques, then I think you are making it really difficult if not impossible for yourself with real navigation mods (hidden uboat icon). You really need to know where your uboat is, as the starting point of the bearing line. If you Ctrl-leftclick on the map then your uboat is moved under the cursor. So that where the line should be starting from. But then you cheat your way around the hidden uboat icon, defeating the mod's purpose.

No uboat icon means you have to resort to relative position plotting from a imaginary point and do some vector magic with the relative motion in the plot and your course and speed.

[edit] the only alternative is to imagine you are somewhere on the map. Start a line representing your course on it. On that line place markers indicating your location based on the speed and time of the plots since the starting location. Then from those markers, place the bearing lines for the sightings. This is known as dead-reckoning plots. But due to the sleepy helmsman in SH3 notoriously unreliable with time compression. After the helmsman reaches the commanded course it just wanders off.

TorpX · 06-13-12, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkval

How do you plot target's course etc. if you are using real navigation mod? I.e. no own sub icon on the map... is it strictly optical approach or there are some tricks with hydrophone too?

I have done this in SH 4. Plotting without your sub icon is not too much harder than doing it with the icon, except you must plot your own position and keep careful track of your own course and speed at every minute. Also, any turns you make must be estimated and thus your plot will have more errors than otherwise. This I think is the biggest disadvantage. It is very difficult to estimate the turning radius and turning speed, and this more or less precludes making turns while your are obtaining estimates of speed and course. (Submerged evasion will likely make your plot into speghetti.) If you find later that your plotted location was way off, you can always erase it from your charts, so it really doesn't matter it your initial DR position is accurate or not.

You can also make your plot on paper, but this brings the added problem of having to transfer your points when you run off the edge of the paper.

When I plotted hydrophone bearings, it was more for the purpose of closing to tactical range, than trying to obtain a firing solution. If I'm close enough to see the target, that is how I do it.

Personally, I gave up on the Celestial Navigation. It was too much work and painfully tedious. Doing a tactical plot without any of the map-contact cheats is some work too, but you don't have contacts to plot every day, while the Cel Nav thing just wares you down.

vanjast · 06-20-12, 02:13 PM

I made an AOB Wheel mod for SH4, which must be somewhere...

To calculate the distance, you first determined the AOB.. turned the wheel to this AOB and then measured the length of the ship resulting in the range. You required only 2 measurements to get approximate speed, range and range at aob=90. Measuring the length of the ship, is more accurate than measuring the mast height unless the AOB is around 180 or 0, then it's a mast height measurement.

To convert this mod to SH3, someone must measure the lengths of all the ships and plug those values onto the board.

06-08-12, 06:36 AM	#1
Shkval Planesman Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 192 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	Just curious... How do you plot target's course etc. if you are using real navigation mod? I.e. no own sub icon on the map... is it strictly optical approach or there are some tricks with hydrophone too? __________________ Come closer... and die.

06-08-12, 07:43 AM	#2
boonie Electrician's Mate Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 134 Downloads: 101 Uploads: 0	you will probably need to use a sextant to determine your actual location and then mark it in the nav map.. i have not played that hardcore yet and i am not sure if the sun will give an accurate reading, but i think i have seen some mad that add a sextant (cant remember if thats for sh3/4/5 though.) edit: opps sorry i thought you meant how to determine where your boat and course is without the autogenerated marking on the map.. Last edited by boonie; 06-08-12 at 09:13 AM.

06-08-12, 08:16 AM	#3
unterseemann Soundman Join Date: May 2005 Location: lyon, france Posts: 144 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 0	If target is not yet visible hydrophon will be the only mean available but you can't have precise data. Once your target is visible yes it's strictly optical approach like it was in real i think. The first thing is to get target's course: I have a formula which work well, the only unknown thing is AoB and it's easy to determinate from a visual sighting (with training of course!) Ship's course= uboot course + periscop deviation + 180 +/- AoB* If AoB is left you add it If AoB is right then you minus it Sometimes it will be a great number, example uboot course 330, periscop deviation 318 and left AoB 100. So ship's course=330+318+180+100=928. A circle is 360° so real ship's course is 208° (208+360+360) You can adjust the formula if you are at ease: the periscop deviation can be written +318 or -42 and instead adding 180 you can minus 180 due to trigonometric proprieties. So ship's course= 330-42-180+100= 208° Even if it's not the real course of your target you have a good idea of the target's direction. I will post a screenshot, more understandable i think... Then estimate distance, speed... __________________

06-08-12, 09:42 AM	#4
Shkval Planesman Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 192 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	Thanks for info, nice formulas...it must pretty hard to get close enough when radar comes into game... you can't be on surface - they see you, you can't be submerged they see your periscope also... hell on earth... no wonder that they lost the battle for Atlantic... and how do you manage to measure your position with sextant during months of (SH 3 buggy) bad weather without sun or stars? I would be lost after 5 days and one chase of a ship... __________________ Come closer... and die.

06-08-12, 10:44 AM	#5
sublynx Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: In the conning tower of my VIIC scanning the sea through the periscope Posts: 1,698 Downloads: 173 Uploads: 7	If you like geometry you might like to read the United States Navy Maneuvering Board Manual from 1941. You can download it from: http://archive.org/details/maneuveringboard00unit Pages 22 - 23 are the most important. The methods described in the manual are usable in SH3. One can even use these methods with hydrophone bearings, but it is very time consuming and basically cheating, because real life hydrophones weren't as accurate as these simulation hydrophones. If this approach feels too theoretical, you might want to try Hitman's Kriegsmarine whizz-wheel, which is great fun too. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] NYGM+H.sie v16+Stiebler 4C+MaGui WS

06-08-12, 11:31 AM	#6
Shkval Planesman Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 192 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	Ok, ok, guys I'm not so hardcore... maybe I will be some day... right now I'm on manual targeting without map contacts update... using the hydrophone A LOT... I can imagine how it would be like without this little icon representing my sub... did anyone survived the war with these hardcore mods? Real navigation... 100% realism... GWX 3.0 gold... IRAI destroyers... seems impossible... __________________ Come closer... and die.

06-13-12, 03:44 PM	#8
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	If you want to plot target positions and it's course, but not do those maneuvering board techniques, then I think you are making it really difficult if not impossible for yourself with real navigation mods (hidden uboat icon). You really need to know where your uboat is, as the starting point of the bearing line. If you Ctrl-leftclick on the map then your uboat is moved under the cursor. So that where the line should be starting from. But then you cheat your way around the hidden uboat icon, defeating the mod's purpose. No uboat icon means you have to resort to relative position plotting from a imaginary point and do some vector magic with the relative motion in the plot and your course and speed. [edit] the only alternative is to imagine you are somewhere on the map. Start a line representing your course on it. On that line place markers indicating your location based on the speed and time of the plots since the starting location. Then from those markers, place the bearing lines for the sightings. This is known as dead-reckoning plots. But due to the sleepy helmsman in SH3 notoriously unreliable with time compression. After the helmsman reaches the commanded course it just wanders off. __________________ My site downloads: https://ricojansen.nl/downloads

06-20-12, 02:13 PM	#10
vanjast Sea Lord Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Somewhere else now Posts: 1,734 Downloads: 825 Uploads: 4	I made an AOB Wheel mod for SH4, which must be somewhere... To calculate the distance, you first determined the AOB.. turned the wheel to this AOB and then measured the length of the ship resulting in the range. You required only 2 measurements to get approximate speed, range and range at aob=90. Measuring the length of the ship, is more accurate than measuring the mast height unless the AOB is around 180 or 0, then it's a mast height measurement. To convert this mod to SH3, someone must measure the lengths of all the ships and plug those values onto the board.