Monterrey police find 49 bodies in bags

[Stealhead]

Too late many of the cartels already control turf in the US.

[August]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Too late many of the cartels already control turf in the US.

Well just because some water is already in the bilge doesn't mean you shouldn't still plug the leaks in the hull.

The cartels make their money by smuggling humans and drugs across the border. Cut that and they begin to wither.

[kiwi_2005]

If I ever win lotto and take a trip round the world I think I will skip Mexico.

[Stealhead]

You mean what we have to some extent be doing for over 40 years?Seems not to have worked very well thus far post 9/11 they upped the number of Border Patrol by large number that made things much more difficult but they just now use the much harder and more difficult to control routes to smuggle drugs in so long as there is a demand (for drugs and for people wishing to get into the US) the cartels will keep on going seeing as this is their source of income the drugs being the big deal the coyote work is a side deal and also clever way to draw our resources away from pursuing the ones smuggling drugs.

Anything we do now is just about too little too late the cartels already have infiltrated the US a wall will not stop the flow(look at Israel look at East Germany look at Ancient China they all have/had some form of extensive wall border control yet they fail/ed and two of those nations have borders many times smaller than the US ) it might lower it but not stop it they already make use of tunnel networks do ever watch the show Border Wars about the Border Patrol and INS on National Geographic channel? I saw on one episode they followed these two BP agents inside this tunnel that had been found in Arizona after they checked it out and measured its length to the Mexican border (so the concrete guys could fill it) one of the agents told the crew that tunnel filling is such a huge business that there are contractors that only do that type of work they find them every single day how many they do not discover is unknown many that are found are the ones reported by the Mexican police when they find them on the other side so we have to rely on those that are not very reliable to find many.

I do not think that the federal government wants to stop fighting the war on drugs any time soon as long as that war is on so will the war and activities of the cartels be active.

[August]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

You mean what we have to some extent be doing for over 40 years?Seems not to have worked very well thus far

Of course they haven't worked because our efforts have been half hearted at best.

post 9/11 they upped the number of Border Patrol by large number that made things much more difficult but they just now use the much harder and more difficult to control routes to smuggle drugs in so long as there is a demand (for drugs and for people wishing to get into the US) the cartels will keep on going seeing as this is their source of income the drugs being the big deal the coyote work is a side deal and also clever way to draw our resources away from pursuing the ones smuggling drugs.

No personal offense intended but your lack of capitalization and punctuation is kind of difficult to follow. I apologize if I accidentally split a sentence between quotes.

I do think you have a point about demand. However we could be a whole lot more effective than we are currently if we actually got serious about it. Throwing a few extra Border patrol agents and building a partial wall is not being serious.

Anything we do now is just about too little too late the cartels already have infiltrated the US a wall will not stop the flow

I disagree. These cartels need to keep up the flow of money or they will quickly wither. Anything we can do to hurt their cash flow will hurt them.

(look at Israel look at East Germany look at Ancient China they all have/had some form of extensive wall border control yet they failed and two of those nations have borders many times smaller than the US ) it might lower it but not stop it they already make use of tunnel networks do ever watch the show Border Wars about the Border Patrol and INS on National Geographic channel?

I haven't seen the show you refer to but the Iron Curtain was a lot more effective than you may have been led to believe. The Great Wall was so long ago it doesn't really apply in modern times. And Israels border is not completed yet so I think it really shouldn't be used as an example here but I am under the impression that it has been pretty effective so far in reducing suicide attacks. I'm sure that MH could provide more detail.

I saw on one episode they followed these two BP agents inside this tunnel that had been found in Arizona after they checked it out and measured its length to the Mexican border (so the concrete guys could fill it) one of the agents told the crew that tunnel filling is such a huge business that there are contractors that only do that type of work they find them every single day how many they do not discover is unknown many that are found are the ones reported by the Mexican police when they find them on the other side so we have to rely on those that are not very reliable to find many.

The fact that the Mexican authorities have to report tunnels tells me that we're not really trying all that hard.

I do not think that the federal government wants to stop fighting the war on drugs any time soon.

Now here we can agree but probably not for the same reasons.

I think the Federal Government doesn't want to stop fighting the WoD because if they did it would mean a big loss of revenue and power hence their half hearted efforts in securing our border and and their constant attempt to block the border states from doing the job themselves.

[Penguin]

3 words: supply and demand.
The so-called "War On Drugs" is just as successfull as the prohibition of alcohol in the US was. With the same side effects: criminalizing citizens for victimless crimes and a rise of the mob.

So all efforts in history failed so far to reduce the demand for drugs, what can we do with the supply? Imo legalization/decriminalization is the only effective way. If people do no harm to others only to themself I see no reason to punish them for this.
The US can easily provide itself with drugs, no need for imports. This way you'd dry out the Cartel's profits. Yes, they do not only make money from drugs, but the argument that they would switch to other criminal activities is moot, as they do it already.

Regarding illegal immigration it should be the other way: With billions of people worldwide living in poverty the supply is virtually endless. So here it could work to hit on the demand. Punish the employers of illegals. The demand for illegals is more or less a luxury demand, it derives from greed and cheapness, as most illegals provide non life-essential services. Can't build a sundeck because US workers are too expensive? Tough crap, maybe wait a year and save some pennies to afford it!
If there are not enough qualified people there is still the option to give out work visas. This way the foreign workers also have the advantage of being protected by work and wage laws.

About the efficiency of the wall, here are some official numbers by the Stasi regarding the German border, for the years 76-85: http://www.chronik-der-mauer.de/inde.../file/id/44085 The first column is relevant, these are the successfull attempts (gelungene Fluichtversuche). 600-900 people per year seems pretty effective.
But does the US really want its Southern border to look like this? :

[soopaman2]

So is it the citizens (USA) fault for liking dope. The Mexicans love to blame us.
Or the fact that most the Mexican cops can be bribed?

I got pulled over for being a gringo, in my younger days, it cost me 50 USD to not be arrested for being white. The cop asked me in English for "a taste to go away" (late teen expedition to Tiajuana)

And that was in a tourist area, 10-15 years ago, before all the cartel crap was in the forefront.

So don't go there.

St. Thomas is better, I was there a few months ago, wonderful, and the natives don't hate you for your skin color, or ethnicity. (or try to scam and rob you)


EDIT: Pretty pic of the Berlin wall Penguin. Great Idea, except you Germans (soviets) didn't have enough artillery and mortars, too few landmines. Mexicans are more crafty than east Germans. You should see what the Koreans did to the dmz, for lessons on border security (sadly we don't use landmines anymore, but we still use napalm..just saying)

[Stealhead]

I am not so sure that St.Thomas is all that safe actually:

http://www.cruiselawnews.com/2010/07...-in-st-thomas/

http://virginislands-guide.info/travel.basics/crime/

[Osmium Steele]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

St. Thomas is better, I was there a few months ago, wonderful, and the natives don't hate you for your skin color, or ethnicity. (or try to scam and rob you)

Must have changed since I was there last. 20+ years ago.

Off the strip and/or away from the cruise ship piers at night was dangerous. Roving bands of 8 - 10 guys would roll even a small group in a heartbeat.

Daytime, perfectly safe pretty much anywhere on the island and beautiful.

Shop for jewelry in St. Thomas and take the hop over to St. Johns. Much safer and less touristy.

[August]

I don't think it would need to look like that Penguin. After all the IC was designed to keep people in whereas we're trying to keep people and smugglers out. Different objective, different defenses. Much better surveillance technology too.

Your point is well taken about demand though. Even a partial legalization of drugs, say just marijuana, would really cut into the cartels cash flow, not to mention free up a lot of government and police resources that could be then concentrated on the really dangerous stuff as well as human trafficking.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by August

I don't think it would need to look like that Penguin. After all the IC was designed to keep people in whereas we're trying to keep people and smugglers out. Different objective, different defenses. Much better surveillance technology too.

Your point is well taken about demand though. Even a partial legalization of drugs, say just marijuana, would really cut into the cartels cash flow, not to mention free up a lot of government and police resources that could be then concentrated on the really dangerous stuff as well as human trafficking.

As someone in the know, not so much a user, (as I cannot due to my job) Most of the real smokers get it from Canada, too many seeds in compressed Mestizo crap weed.

Just saying.

I feel bad for southerners with no choice, the Canadian weed is so much better (Yes I do know) Damn my job for not letting me know it better

Legal pot= broke prison industry, blasphemous to capitalist job creators.