Please explain "virtual selling" to me

[Osmium Steele]

It is the "trade" part of Cap and Trade.

Instead of openly trading emissions credits, they subsidize Greece's power grid and raise their own emmisions caps legally.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Osmium Steele

It is the "trade" part of Cap and Trade.

Instead of openly trading emissions credits, they subsidize Greece's power grid and raise their own emmisions caps legally.

So I understand it right that in principle it is fraudulent labelling?

[gimpy117]

just another way for men in government to rationalize not investing more in renewable energy

[Skybird]

Well, the EU polit-bureau commissioner for energy - a fallen German who was chased away by Merkel - approved it on behalf of the EU, so what did I expect in reason...

[MH]

Trippy idea.....
So they sort of find ways to avoid their own rules.

[Osmium Steele]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

just another way for men in government to rationalize not investing more in renewable energy

Since when solar generated electricity not renewable energy?

[Morts]

Originally Posted by Osmium Steele

Since when solar generated electricity not renewable energy?

Letting other countries raise their caps like that would allow them to NOT use renewable energy.

Short term win for the companies, long term fail for the country

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by Morts

...
Short term win for the companies, long term fail for the country

Don't say things like that. People might think you are greek or something ...

.

[Osmium Steele]

Originally Posted by Morts

Letting other countries raise their caps like that would allow them to NOT use renewable energy.

Short term win for the companies, long term fail for the country

But, isn't it incentive for Greece, and other countries, to build more solar plants? Isn't it a win for renewable energy investment?

Heck, if everybody paid them, eventually Greece could generate all power for the entire planet! No one would need to use gas, coal or oil to generate electricity. Atmospheric CO2 plummets. No more need for emissions caps. Utopia attained!

(Yes, the tongue is firmly planted in the cheek.)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Osmium Steele

Since when solar generated electricity not renewable energy?
(...)
But, isn't it incentive for Greece, and other countries, to build more solar plants? Isn't it a win for renewable energy investment?

Heck, if everybody paid them, eventually Greece could generate all power for the entire planet! No one would need to use gas, coal or oil to generate electricity. Atmospheric CO2 plummets. No more need for emissions caps. Utopia attained!

(Yes, the tongue is firmly planted in the cheek.)

You have not thought it through correctly, the plan they have, I mean. Greece DOES NOT deliver the electricty it produces by solar panels according to this plan, they only virtually sell it, but not in real. To be precise, it plans to deliver/export only 10% of the electricity it wants to produce with these panels. So electricty they produce - does not get distributed. It stays in Greece. The eneeds for enmergy elsewhere thus remain unaffected by this.

Now let'S have a simple, schemnatic example of what happens according to that plan.

There is let's say Holland. Holland produces electricity, and let'S assume by doing it it cannot cap the emissions it is allowed to reach. It exceeds the limits.

Now comes Greece and produces electricity with solar panels. Clean, green, nice. It sells an export of electicity to Holland. Holland pays for the electricity.

Money flows. But electricty flows NOT. The sale is virtual only. The electricity bought by Holland gets consumed in Greece.

That leaves Holland with some money less, and still with the need of electricity, becasue it gets jone from Greece which it has payed to virtually deliver, but not in the real world.

Hollanmd thus still prodcues electricty the way it did before it agreed to the deal with Greece. It still causes emissions by its own, and it still causes almost the same emissions it would have casued than before the deal. It vcasues these emissions, since it still must prioduce the electricty it needs - sine it does not get the electricity if has bought from Greece. Remember, the electricity stays in greece and gets consumed there.

But Holland is given by the EU permission to increase the total maximum limit on its emissions. So by giving the Greeks money for electricty Greece doe snot need to deliver and does not plan to deliver, Holland earns the right to cause the same emissions as before, but now legally, either overstepping the new limits by a smaller margin than before, of maybe it dfoes not overstep the limits at all anymore,s ince they have been in creased. But Holland still produces the same emissions than before!

So in what way is this business model, if one dares to call it this, a model for producing green energy? Notg less emissions get caused. There is no em ission rfeduction. There is no electricty delivered to Holland. There is no decline in demand.

And what does Greece do with the electricity it wants to additionally produce, but probably does not need? Where is the sudden increase in demand coming from? Do they suddenly run an additional TV in all households, all day long?

This is a faulty, even fraudulent business model from all beginning on. The Greeks get money, the Dutch get a rise in their emission limits, and the EU gets a formal exycuse to claim that their emission goals will be met (at the cost of having increased them), or missing them by just a smaller margin. environment-friendly electricity production has nothing to do with it.

Not to mention the technical problems and missing powergrid infrastructure to feed that electricity into the continental powergrid.

You see, there are no emissions being cut in this model anyhwere in Europe. That's why it is not any green at all. Emission caps even get increased through the backdoor!

Do you now understand why I was so irritated and did noit trust my eyes and askled whether I really undersxtood this correctly?

[Diopos]

Solar has an intrinsic problem. It goes down with the sun. Exactly when you need to turn the lights on. A viable solution for nearly all renewable energy must include as stabilization of output reagardless of the variation of the primary source (sun or wind). The Germans had actually proposed a very interesting solution almost a century ago. Use renewable energy to produce hydrogen by hydrolysis of water. Store hydrogen. Then burn it to produce electricity. The stored hydrogen "buffers" and secures the input (and output) of the generator and stabilizes the whole Grid. You can not talk about electric power distribution without a stable grid. Modern material science may provide other solutions than classical hydrolysis, but the basic thing is that your power source must be consistenly stable. At present we are capable of using renewable power sources because we still have a large capacity of "classical" power sources to compensate.

.