Creation >> DNA Code

[razark]

Originally Posted by August

...but what would be considered "piles of crap" is really a matter of personal opinion.

Well:

Originally Posted by razark

...slavery, genocide, conquest, etc.

I'd call those "piles of crap", morally. And I will go so far to say that anyone that doesn't think those are morally wrong is also a "pile of crap".

Originally Posted by AngusJS

Oh, that poor defenseless man who called their show to tell them that they are going to hell for not thinking the way he does!

Yeah, the AE team is quite clear that anyone is welcome to call their show. They spent an entire episode talking to Ray Comfort once.

[August]

Originally Posted by razark

Well:

I'd call those "piles of crap", morally. And I will go so far to say that anyone that doesn't think those are morally wrong is also a "pile of crap".

Really? Well I would go so far to say that anyone who so callously dismisses an entire collection of books that have been held dear by billions of people for thousands of years as a "pile of crap" is staggeringly arrogant. By what authority do you make these claims? Why should anyone believe you?

[razark]

Originally Posted by August

Really? Well I would go so far to say that anyone who so callously dismisses an entire collection of books that have been held dear by billions of people for thousands of years as a "pile of crap" is staggeringly arrogant.

I did not dismiss the entire collection. I even said there were some good parts. I simply pointed out that parts of the collection are downright wrong, morally. I also asked how you tell the divinely inspired parts from everything else.

Originally Posted by August

By what authority do you make these claims? Why should anyone believe you?

By my authority as a human being to make moral judgments on actions I am aware of. And no one should believe me, they should examine the evidence for themselves with an open mind, and ask what they believe is right and wrong.

So let me ask you:
Is slavery ever morally right?

[August]

Originally Posted by razark

So let me ask you:
Is slavery ever morally right?

Not by my standards. How about yours?

I also asked how you tell the divinely inspired parts from everything else.

Because I am not blind but i'm not going to give you a point by point review of the merits of every verse in a book that I see as only as one general guide to life out of many.

What Bible verses in particular do you object to and can you explain how you know that they haven't been added or modified in one of the many translations since the event they describe occurred?

[razark]

Originally Posted by August

Not by my standards. How about yours?

Not by my standards either. I just wanted to make sure we could agree that there was something in the book that we could agree was morally wrong.

Originally Posted by August

What Bible verses in particular do you object to and can you explain how you know that they haven't been added or modified in one of the many translations since the event they describe occurred?

There's the slavery, and the genocide, stories of god directing conquest, and a few other things that I'm just not interested in hunting down right now.

[August]

Originally Posted by razark

Not by my standards either. I just wanted to make sure we could agree that there was something in the book that we could agree was morally wrong.

By our standards. I would not presume to judge the morals and motives of people long since dead.

There's the slavery, and the genocide, stories of god directing conquest, and a few other things that I'm just not interested in hunting down right now.

So these passages you can't actually recall in any detail you assign them as much religious weight as the 10 Commandments? How about the pages and pages of "begats"? You believe that Noah for instance lived several centuries? If not then why do you believe the darker bible stories?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by razark

I also asked how you tell the divinely inspired parts from everything else.

Originally Posted by August

Because I am not blind but i'm not going to give you a point by point review of the merits of every verse in a book that I see as only as one general guide to life out of many.

That is an intriguing question, though. If one believes the Bible to be absolutely true, how does one ignore the parts where God orders the death of thousands, or perpetrates those deaths himself.

If, on the other hand, one only claims to believe certain parts, how does one tell the true parts from the false ones.

Then again, if the Bible is just a good guide for living one's life, we're right back to ignoring the parts we don't like. Also the Ten Commandments are very specific on the worship of the one God. Not exactly just a guidepost for living, but very singular in their demands.

This complication is one of the reasons I no longer believe in the Bible. There is too much contradiction for me to ignore, and more than one person gave the same guidelines without demanding absolute servitude, and did it long before Jesus.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That is an intriguing question, though. If one believes the Bible to be absolutely true, how does one ignore the parts where God orders the death of thousands, or perpetrates those deaths himself.

If, on the other hand, one only claims to believe certain parts, how does one tell the true parts from the false ones.

Then again, if the Bible is just a good guide for living one's life, we're right back to ignoring the parts we don't like. Also the Ten Commandments are very specific on the worship of the one God. Not exactly just a guidepost for living, but very singular in their demands.

This complication is one of the reasons I no longer believe in the Bible. There is too much contradiction for me to ignore, and more than one person gave the same guidelines without demanding absolute servitude, and did it long before Jesus.

It is a good question. If God is a loving God why were other nations destroyed? Well, if you look at the biblical accounts they were pagan nations. By pagan I mean those who disregarded His Torah. For example they sacrificed human children to Molech, others participated in omophagia, others practiced sexual sacrifice. All these things God does not want for His own. Even when some of Israel fell into disobedience they met the same consequences as the pagan nations.

But everyone has a choice. One can continue to disregard what the King commands and face the consequences or they can obey the kings commandments and live. But many live in a day and age when the will of the people prevails and do not bow down to kings.

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

If, on the other hand, one only claims to believe certain parts, how does one tell the true parts from the false ones.

I'll tell you. Which part do you have in mind?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

It is a good question. If God is a loving God why were other nations destroyed? Well, if you look at the biblical accounts they were pagan nations. By pagan I mean those who disregarded His Torah. For example they sacrificed human children to Molech, others participated in omophagia, others practiced sexual sacrifice. All these things God does not want for His own. Even when some of Israel fell into disobedience they met the same consequences as the pagan nations.

I can understand hating the human sacrifice part, but not believing the same law? If that's the case do you believe that one side or the other of the medieval religious wars was right, and that the other deserved death? I don't see any difference between the Hebrews destroying the Philistines and the Catholics destroying the Protestants. Both committed mass murder in the name of their God. I'm not saying this is God's fault - I don't know. I'm told there is an old Hindu saying that goes "No god should be judged by the sort of people who claim to worship him." That said, I have to question whether any god who orders murder is to be trusted, or whether any book which makes those sorts of claims is to be believed.

But everyone has a choice. One can continue to disregard what the King commands and face the consequences or they can obey the kings commandments and live. But many live in a day and age when the will of the people prevails and do not bow down to kings.

Yes, we all have a choice. Some choose to believe blindly, and some choose to question everything, especially stories in which people are commanded to slaughter everything in sight in one text and love their enemies in another.

Me? I'm still looking for some evidence.

Originally Posted by August

I'll tell you. Which part do you have in mind?

I have no particular part in mind. My question was "How?" This is a problem I have living where I do. The major local religion insists they believe the King James Bible to be true, except for the parts where it's translated incorrectly. Interestingly the parts that are "incorrect" are the ones that disagree with their doctrine. This can be taken either way, so it can be true or it can be convenient.

So, how does one tell?