What is the reason, for a war against Iran ? - Page 6

gimpy117 · 03-21-12, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torplexed

It's my understanding that tons of debris were excavated from crater. I think a lot of the problem is that the aerial pictures of the crater didn't fit most people's idea of what a jet crash looks like with oily smoking wreckage and a vague wrecked aircraft shape. Kind of reminds me of Apollo disbelievers who think the moon landings were fake because the awkward looking lunar module didn't fit their mental picture of what a spaceship looks like.

well yeah tons of debirs would fit with such a massive A/C at such speed

MH · 03-21-12, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Anyway i would like you to watch this video i already posted, and tell me what you think of it ? This is not a nutjob video:
#!

Catfish...that is very reasonable video.
It nor denies or confirms anything actually and again its simply about definitions who is who.
If some one used BL ideology or money and support for terrorist attack is he member or AQ blah ...blah ...or just independent with same objective.
Actually this video tell how effective terror organisation might work.

Catfish · 03-22-12, 05:00 AM

Thanks MH, this was one of the points i meant.

On topic:
Civilian israelian campaign against bombing Iran.

On facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/israellovesiran

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/is...160645131.html

"Let's beat the politicians":
http://www.israelovesiran.com/

This private campaign currently going viral, is maybe an answer to the clandestine operation of seeking out enemies over Twitter.
Anywy interesting to see that Facebook also works backwards - not only exposing private data to companies and government services, but also to show how much people are against certain policies of governments.

[cynical]Now if this becomes a habit, there's one more argument for governments and their censorship on the internet [/cynical]

Platapus · 03-22-12, 04:31 PM

When I was in EOD, I responded to (too) many plane crashes. The only thing that was in common between all of them was that every crash is different.

I have seen crash sites where you could see the entire aircraft and then the next one there is nothing left bigger than a shard. It was not uncommon to have an incident where major components (like entire jet engines) were never recovered.

There are a lot of factors involved in an airplane crash. A change in any one of them could drastically change the site.

Stealhead · 03-22-12, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

On topic:
Civilian israelian campaign against bombing Iran.

You seem surprised that some Israelis are opposed to a war with Iran.Why is that so shocking to you.Perhaps because few US media outlets every mention
such things.

Catfish · 03-23-12, 02:51 AM

I am sorry if my post sounded as if i was astonished about some Israelis being against a war, this was not my intention.
No, i am not surprised that some Isrealis do not want to go to war with Iran. But it is the first time i hear of such an idea, make a public statement that is internationally visible !

However e.g. on this site (there are others) it is always taken as a given thing that Israel and the USA will attack Iran, or at least do a strike against the iranian nuclear positions, automatically implying or suggesting that all Israelis and Americans want it - obviously (and now made public), that is not so. "People do not start a war, governments do" is a quote from Reagan, but what will governments do if it became clear internationally, their main population were against them ?

Imagine such a site became viral, in Iran .. what would the government do ? Try to sue them of course, switch off Internet access, or make a deal with Google not to find any critical voices ?

Problem is, people CAN be sought out over Twitter (Facebook is self-evident) or for their IP address alone, so posting something critical in a dictatorship means a high risk. (The chinese are putting this to a test though).

The other problem is, does Iran build "the bomb", or not ..

Greetings,
Catfish

03-23-12, 03:09 AM

Quote:

But it is the first time i hear of such an idea, make a public statement that is internationally visible !

Follow the regional news more

Skybird · 03-23-12, 06:44 AM

I do not know if the majority of Americans are for a war against Iran, I doubt it strongly, but I think it is a pretty safe bet to assume that the majority of Israelis accept it, even when needing to take civilian casualties from an Iranian counterstrike of any kind. Certain military preparations in Israel indicate that they know of and accept the possibilties of missile strikes against Tel Aviv and other major cities.

For spoiled-by-peace Westerners who have not suffered tyranny and war since a whole man-life, this may be appearing strange and unbelievable. But for those remebering historic lessons and being reminded of death and suffering in their own ranks time and again, it is expression of a knowledge that sometimes things for the better, or necessities, do not happen all by themselves, but must be fought for.

Some fights find us, and we cannot afford to run away from them. But i have given up hope that Westerners will ever understand this - until the next big bang happening in Europe. Seeing that we already live in an era of post-democracy and post-democratic order, with autocratic regimes creeping into power everywhere and ursurpating power through the backdoors, I see the chances for such a big bang slowly growing. And in the wake of the new autocracy establishing itself, extremist movements are blossoming while the silent majority just sits on the fenceline, smiling and holding hands with the family, and lets the selling out of their precious heritage happen, with thinking switched off. The good fairy queen will make sure that it all comes to a good ending.

All by itself.

That Israel disturbs this peaceful atmosphere of naivety and self-glorification, is really unforgivable.

For German readers: Deutschland steht zu Israel - unter Vorbehalt...

03-23-12, 07:16 AM

Quote:

For spoiled-by-peace Westerners who have not suffered tyranny and war since a whole man-life, this may be appearing strange and unbelievable. But for those remebering historic lessons and being reminded of death and suffering in their own ranks time and again, it is expression of a knowledge that sometimes things for the better, or necessities, do not happen all by themselves, but must be fought for.

Wow what a pile of crap

For those remembering historic lessons most of the time the wars get fought for nonsense reasons, serve no real purpose and fail to achieve even a small measure of their stated desires.

MothBalls · 03-23-12, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Wow what a pile of crap

For those remembering historic lessons most of the time the wars get fought for nonsense reasons, serve no real purpose and fail to achieve even a small measure of their stated desires.

Iran and Iraq come to mind, then Vietnam, then Korea.... I agree, many pointless wars. I wonder what these last four have in common?

August · 03-23-12, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MothBalls

Iran and Iraq come to mind, then Vietnam, then Korea.... I agree, many pointless wars. I wonder what these last four have in common?

Failed to achieve even a small measure of their objectives? You probably shouldn't believe the troll because that's just not true.

Korea - There are still no North Korean divisions dug in around Pusan, they've been kicked back to their border where they still reside. That's pretty much the entire war aim of the UN during that conflict.
Iraq - The war was to remove Saddam Hussain from power. That objective was accomplished.
Iran - Not sure how that can be called a defeat seeing as how we haven't even fought a war with them,... yet.

In fact the only one in your list that could really be called a failure is Vietnam and that was more through our lack of will to win rather than a lack of ability to win.

TLAM Strike · 03-23-12, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Iran - Not sure how that can be called a defeat seeing as how we haven't even fought a war with them,... yet.

Operation Earnest Will and is sub-operations (Praying Mantis etc) were quite successful.

Platapus · 03-23-12, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Operation Earnest Will and is sub-operations (Praying Mantis etc) were quite successful.

Not to mention Operation Ajax. Although success is in the eye of the beholder.

joegrundman · 03-23-12, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Iraq - The war was to remove Saddam Hussain from power. That objective was accomplished.

seriously, your memory is that all of that was just to get rid of one medium-grade dictator?

03-23-12, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Failed to achieve even a small measure of their objectives? You probably shouldn't believe the troll because that's just not true.

Korea - There are still no North Korean divisions dug in around Pusan, they've been kicked back to their border where they still reside. That's pretty much the entire war aim of the UN during that conflict.
Iraq - The war was to remove Saddam Hussain from power. That objective was accomplished.
Iran - Not sure how that can be called a defeat seeing as how we haven't even fought a war with them,... yet.

Yet again august the troll returns to talking pure bollox

1. False. the objective was unification and the removal of all foreign forces.
2. False. there was a huge pile of aims and objectives, getting rid of a powerless petty dictator was a meaningless minute part....but then again since just about every reason given as justification for the war was bollox it is not surprising its cheerleaders are still desperately grasping at straws.
3. wow you claimed they was already at war, something to do with you not undertanding anything about it and not understandfing what soveriegn territory is.
4. False. all failed in many ways and that 4th example is a prime example of the French failing to achieve any of its aims then the US and its allies also failing to achieve any of theirs....which also ties back to a failed aim of #1

Two things are of note.....
August failed in spectacular fashion to deal with what was actually written and then provided great examples of how to be incorrect on even a very limited sample of modern conflicts.
Mothballs chose only 3 direct conflicts out of the thousands of examples possible and seemed possibly very US centric in the choice.

Quote:

seriously, your memory is that all of that was just to get rid of one medium-grade dictator?

But but but ...if it wasn't then what was it ...I mean what were ....what did they die for.....it was about getting rid of a Saddam and that is all there was to it so SHUT UP end of story

03-22-12, 05:00 AM	#78
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Thanks MH, this was one of the points i meant. On topic: Civilian israelian campaign against bombing Iran. On facebook: http://www.facebook.com/israellovesiran http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/is...160645131.html "Let's beat the politicians": http://www.israelovesiran.com/ This private campaign currently going viral, is maybe an answer to the clandestine operation of seeking out enemies over Twitter. Anywy interesting to see that Facebook also works backwards - not only exposing private data to companies and government services, but also to show how much people are against certain policies of governments. [cynical]Now if this becomes a habit, there's one more argument for governments and their censorship on the internet [/cynical] Last edited by Catfish; 03-22-12 at 05:33 AM.

03-22-12, 04:31 PM	#79
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,375 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	When I was in EOD, I responded to (too) many plane crashes. The only thing that was in common between all of them was that every crash is different. I have seen crash sites where you could see the entire aircraft and then the next one there is nothing left bigger than a shard. It was not uncommon to have an incident where major components (like entire jet engines) were never recovered. There are a lot of factors involved in an airplane crash. A change in any one of them could drastically change the site. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

03-23-12, 06:44 AM	#83
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,649 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I do not know if the majority of Americans are for a war against Iran, I doubt it strongly, but I think it is a pretty safe bet to assume that the majority of Israelis accept it, even when needing to take civilian casualties from an Iranian counterstrike of any kind. Certain military preparations in Israel indicate that they know of and accept the possibilties of missile strikes against Tel Aviv and other major cities. For spoiled-by-peace Westerners who have not suffered tyranny and war since a whole man-life, this may be appearing strange and unbelievable. But for those remebering historic lessons and being reminded of death and suffering in their own ranks time and again, it is expression of a knowledge that sometimes things for the better, or necessities, do not happen all by themselves, but must be fought for. Some fights find us, and we cannot afford to run away from them. But i have given up hope that Westerners will ever understand this - until the next big bang happening in Europe. Seeing that we already live in an era of post-democracy and post-democratic order, with autocratic regimes creeping into power everywhere and ursurpating power through the backdoors, I see the chances for such a big bang slowly growing. And in the wake of the new autocracy establishing itself, extremist movements are blossoming while the silent majority just sits on the fenceline, smiling and holding hands with the family, and lets the selling out of their precious heritage happen, with thinking switched off. The good fairy queen will make sure that it all comes to a good ending. All by itself. That Israel disturbs this peaceful atmosphere of naivety and self-glorification, is really unforgivable. For German readers: Deutschland steht zu Israel - unter Vorbehalt... __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-23-12, 02:51 AM	#81
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	I am sorry if my post sounded as if i was astonished about some Israelis being against a war, this was not my intention. No, i am not surprised that some Isrealis do not want to go to war with Iran. But it is the first time i hear of such an idea, make a public statement that is internationally visible ! However e.g. on this site (there are others) it is always taken as a given thing that Israel and the USA will attack Iran, or at least do a strike against the iranian nuclear positions, automatically implying or suggesting that all Israelis and Americans want it - obviously (and now made public), that is not so. "People do not start a war, governments do" is a quote from Reagan, but what will governments do if it became clear internationally, their main population were against them ? Imagine such a site became viral, in Iran .. what would the government do ? Try to sue them of course, switch off Internet access, or make a deal with Google not to find any critical voices ? Problem is, people CAN be sought out over Twitter (Facebook is self-evident) or for their IP address alone, so posting something critical in a dictatorship means a high risk. (The chinese are putting this to a test though). The other problem is, does Iran build "the bomb", or not .. Greetings, Catfish