Luke a Jedi?

Gargamel · 03-21-12, 07:31 PM

Since he never finished his training, was luke ever really a Jedi?

Skybird · 03-21-12, 07:37 PM

Believe master Yoda's words on his death-bed:

"Luke, when gone am I... the last of the Jedi will you be."

(SW-VI)

Raptor1 · 03-21-12, 07:48 PM

Yes, he was. He even founds the new Jedi Order in a certain book trilogy that probably shouldn't be talked about too much beyond indirect references.

frau kaleun · 03-21-12, 07:51 PM

And IIRC when he returns to Yoda to complete his training, Yoda tells him he's already learned everything he needs to know. If Yoda says your training is complete, who's going to argue?

Also given that the few remaining members of the order were all dead by the end of Ep VI, I think Luke got to be the one who defined what a "Jedi" was from that point forward.

TLAM Strike · 03-21-12, 07:51 PM

Well there are several ranks of Jedihood, just being part of the Jedi Order makes one a Jedi. Luke was an apprentice of two Jedi masters making him a Jedi by association.

Rockstar · 03-21-12, 08:02 PM

Yoda was no doubt up in age. Who is to say he was of sound mind when he told Luke he was a Jedi. He could been dosed up on meds. Ever look close at his eyes he was deffinetley on something.

Luke: Am I a Jedi?

Yoda: Dude you have you kewl Jedi vibe now going on... See that did you? Whoa there it is again.

TLAM Strike · 03-21-12, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Yoda was no doubt up in age. Who is to say he was of sound mind when he told Luke he was a Jedi. He could been dosed up on meds. Ever look close at his eyes he was deffinetley on something.

Yea he stole Carrie Fisher's stash from the Holiday Special!

Stealhead · 03-21-12, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Yoda was no doubt up in age. Who is to say he was of sound mind when he told Luke he was a Jedi. He could been dosed up on meds. Ever look close at his eyes he was deffinetley on something.

That was the soul in his eyes being absorbed back into the Force and he was resisting it to tell Luke what he needed to hear he told Luke he was a Jedi because Yoda knew that he was going to face a very difficult battle in the near future and needed to be told that he was in fact a Jedi.

Yoda used up his drugs during Empire Strikes Back anyways clearly high he was when he first met Luke wore off a few hours later did they when Obi Wan spoke snapped Yoda out of his trip that did.

AngusJS · 03-21-12, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Yoda was no doubt up in age. Who is to say he was of sound mind when he told Luke he was a Jedi. He could been dosed up on meds. Ever look close at his eyes he was deffinetley on something.

He certainly looked as a high as a kite in Episode I.

Stealhead · 03-21-12, 08:32 PM

Judging by the behavior I would say that Yoda was a user of methamphetamine because he sure as hell had a lot of energy when he was high.Wen not he moved around like an old man.

TLAM Strike · 03-21-12, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Yoda used up his drugs during Empire Strikes Back anyways clearly high he was when he first met Luke wore off a few hours later did they when Obi Wan spoke snapped Yoda out of his trip that did.

Somehow I don't think him seeing and talking to a dead guy meant that he was out of drugs.

frau kaleun · 03-21-12, 09:01 PM

Well, this does raise an interesting question about what makes one a true "Jedi" - is it the completion of some rigid set curriculum of physical, mental, and spiritual training, with every i dotted and every t crossed and every checkmark duly checked off? Or is it the attainment of something that is not so easily quantified and measured? A particular quality of mind, heart, character, that can only be proven to exist at any given moment by the words and actions of the one in possession of it?

Luke had already faced what surely was the most rigorous and gut-wrenching test of his "training period": he'd learned the worst part of the truth about his family heritage, realized that he was the son and heir of the (second) most evil person in the galaxy (and remember, Luke hadn't met the Emperor yet, so in his mind at the time Vader *was* the ultimate evil), discovered that pretty much everyone he'd ever trusted had lied to him about it, and been tempted to turn his anger and resentment over that into a reason to transfer his allegiance from them to his own flesh and blood and go to the dark side. Which, you know, was good enough for dear old dad and those other people did lie to you, son.

He faced that test, and he passed it. I think that's the yardstick, if any, that Yoda was using.

Does he have more to learn? Yes, because there is always more to learn, even the "master," the sensei, is just someone who is further along the path than you are. The path itself does not end and that is as it should be because some training can only be done "on the job" and some wisdom can only be learned - really learned and internalized - through personal experiences yet to be encountered.

In addition I think his entire attitude and behavior in the film that followed, in particular his final refusal to allow the Emperor to manipulate him towards the dark side by setting him up to fight and destroy his own father... that's plenty good enough for me.

Falkirion · 03-21-12, 09:09 PM

Going strictly by the movies, in my mind. He became a true jedi the moment he struck Vader down and let him live. Which is what most light siders will do.

And I'm not getting into the whole EU thing. If you want to read about it, head over to wookiepedia. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

frau kaleun · 03-21-12, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falkirion

Going strictly by the movies, in my mind. He became a true jedi the moment he struck Vader down and let him live. Which is what most light siders will do.

When RotJ first came out and I saw it in the theater I didn't really "get" the significance of the ending, I mean, yeah, I'm sure I realized that Luke's the hero so whatever he did was the right thing and the Alliance wins and evil is defeated, wooooo! But on a deeper philosophical, spiritual level - I just couldn't appreciate it. In fact when the SEs went back out to the theaters and I saw them as a much older (and one would hope wiser) adult, I realized at some point that I didn't even remember exactly what happened with the Luke/Vader/Emperor confrontation or why that ended the way it did.

Not only did that make watching the movie far more fun and interesting (as did my ability to overlook the whole Ewok thing, which I simply could not do at age 17-18 when I guess I felt I had to work much harder at pretending to be "grown up," lol), but it meant that I was simply BLOWN AWAY by how that situation played out. It seemed clear to me that the Emperor was trying to do to Luke what he had probably done to Anakin Skywalker - manipulate him into doing something so heinous and, in his own mind, so unforgivable, that the Dark Side seemed like the only remaining option.

From the conversations Luke has with Vader it seems clear that Vader believes that, having done what he has done, there is no turning back. The path is set and must be followed, since redemption of any kind or magnitude is an impossibility. Luke's argument is that it is *never* too late to turn around and start walking the other way. Can you undo what you have done, can you ever make full reparations for the damage you have caused - no. But you can at least start moving in a better direction from this moment forward. The trick is, you have to believe that it's possible and Vader does not and no doubt the Emperor has done much to convince him of that. I have no doubt that he would have tried to convince Luke of that same thing, had Luke chosen to kill Vader. He would've used it as evidence of Luke's "corrupt" nature in an attempt to corrupt it even further.

The crucial moment is when Luke momentarily fails to control himself and takes off Vader's hand, obviously a bionic/robotic one, then looks at his own replacement for the hand that Vader took off of him in their first battle. And you can see him make the connection - that he is being manipulated into becoming more and more like Vader (as distinct from whatever's left of the once good Anakin Skywalker) by the same guy who no doubt once manipulated Anakin in much the same way. He is being auditioned for the part of Palpatine's new Sith apprentice, and homey don't play that.

Honestly I had tears in my eyes at the end of that scene, when Vader chose to become Anakin again and save Luke. It was like, well, if my son here can choose another option besides the crap ones the Emperor is offering us, then so can I.

TLAM Strike · 03-21-12, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

Luke had already faced what surely was the most rigorous and gut-wrenching test of his "training period": he'd learned the worst part of the truth about his family heritage, realized that he was the son and heir of the (second) most evil person in the galaxy (and remember, Luke hadn't met the Emperor yet, so in his mind at the time Vader *was* the ultimate evil), discovered that pretty much everyone he'd ever trusted had lied to him about it, and been tempted to turn his anger and resentment over that into a reason to transfer his allegiance from them to his own flesh and blood and go to the dark side. Which, you know, was good enough for dear old dad and those other people did lie to you, son.

I'm not so sure about this part. Luke would have had to known something of the Emperor, he was the leader of the enemy after all. Also was Vader his ultimate evil? Up till that point he just the man who Luke believed killed his father and chased him across the galaxy. After all Grand Moff Tarkin was the man who destroyed Alderaan, in fact Vader was just an errand boy and does what Tarkin demands.

What does Vader say to Luke? "You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this." Why would he say this to Luke unless Luke believe the Emperor was some blight on the galaxy? Was he full of hatred of the Empire? He wanted to join the Empire until they killed his Aunt and Uncle.

Now either Luke was out for revenge against Vader, in which case Vader telling him that he can destroy the Emperor and rule the Galaxy would be a kinda lame offer (especially since Jedi/Sith are telepathic). Or Luke was out for revenge against the Empire in which case Vader is just a part of it, and the Emperor must have been the ultimate evil.

Also wouldn't the Rebels have given him some kind of indoctrination on how the Empire works. Some of their leadership (like Leia) were members of the Imperial Senate, they must have talked about how they wanted to get rid of the Emperor who was ruining the Empire they were representatives of.

There must have been something else. What does Luke do in ROTJ? He tries to turn Vader to the Light side... before the Rebels blow up the space station the Emperor is on. Luke being arguably the greatest Rebel in the whole Rebel Alliance (Wedge being the other

) So if Luke believes the Emperor is the Ultimate Evil (Which he must or Vader's offer would be quite lame) there must be something else going on...

Teenager, probably thinks he is indestructible...
Blows up unstoppable doomsday machine...
Is with band of rebels who want to overthrow the government...
Tries to stage coup with right hand man of leader of said government...

Was Luke out for a power grab?

ORRRRRR....
He ignored Vader's offer and sided with the Rebels because he wanted to get his space freak on...

He didn't know until the next movie...

... then he volunteers for a suicide mission...

03-21-12, 07:31 PM	#1
Gargamel Lucky Sailor Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Rome Posts: 4,273 Downloads: 81 Uploads: 0	Luke a Jedi? Since he never finished his training, was luke ever really a Jedi? __________________ Luck is a residue of Design.

03-21-12, 07:37 PM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,683 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Believe master Yoda's words on his death-bed: "Luke, when gone am I... the last of the Jedi will you be." (SW-VI) __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-21-12, 07:48 PM	#3
Raptor1 Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Stavka Posts: 8,211 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	Yes, he was. He even founds the new Jedi Order in a certain book trilogy that probably shouldn't be talked about too much beyond indirect references. __________________ Current Eastern Front status: Probable Victory

03-21-12, 07:51 PM	#5
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	Well there are several ranks of Jedihood, just being part of the Jedi Order makes one a Jedi. Luke was an apprentice of two Jedi masters making him a Jedi by association. __________________

03-21-12, 07:51 PM	#4
frau kaleun Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skyri--oh who are we kidding, I'm probably at Lowe's. Again. Posts: 12,706 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	And IIRC when he returns to Yoda to complete his training, Yoda tells him he's already learned everything he needs to know. If Yoda says your training is complete, who's going to argue? Also given that the few remaining members of the order were all dead by the end of Ep VI, I think Luke got to be the one who defined what a "Jedi" was from that point forward.

03-21-12, 08:02 PM	#6
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Yoda was no doubt up in age. Who is to say he was of sound mind when he told Luke he was a Jedi. He could been dosed up on meds. Ever look close at his eyes he was deffinetley on something. Luke: Am I a Jedi? Yoda: Dude you have you kewl Jedi vibe now going on... See that did you? Whoa there it is again.

03-21-12, 08:32 PM	#10
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Judging by the behavior I would say that Yoda was a user of methamphetamine because he sure as hell had a lot of energy when he was high.Wen not he moved around like an old man.

03-21-12, 09:01 PM	#12
frau kaleun Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skyri--oh who are we kidding, I'm probably at Lowe's. Again. Posts: 12,706 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	Well, this does raise an interesting question about what makes one a true "Jedi" - is it the completion of some rigid set curriculum of physical, mental, and spiritual training, with every i dotted and every t crossed and every checkmark duly checked off? Or is it the attainment of something that is not so easily quantified and measured? A particular quality of mind, heart, character, that can only be proven to exist at any given moment by the words and actions of the one in possession of it? Luke had already faced what surely was the most rigorous and gut-wrenching test of his "training period": he'd learned the worst part of the truth about his family heritage, realized that he was the son and heir of the (second) most evil person in the galaxy (and remember, Luke hadn't met the Emperor yet, so in his mind at the time Vader was the ultimate evil), discovered that pretty much everyone he'd ever trusted had lied to him about it, and been tempted to turn his anger and resentment over that into a reason to transfer his allegiance from them to his own flesh and blood and go to the dark side. Which, you know, was good enough for dear old dad and those other people did lie to you, son. He faced that test, and he passed it. I think that's the yardstick, if any, that Yoda was using. Does he have more to learn? Yes, because there is always more to learn, even the "master," the sensei, is just someone who is further along the path than you are. The path itself does not end and that is as it should be because some training can only be done "on the job" and some wisdom can only be learned - really learned and internalized - through personal experiences yet to be encountered. In addition I think his entire attitude and behavior in the film that followed, in particular his final refusal to allow the Emperor to manipulate him towards the dark side by setting him up to fight and destroy his own father... that's plenty good enough for me.

03-21-12, 09:09 PM	#13
Falkirion Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Melbourne, AUS Posts: 1,043 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	Going strictly by the movies, in my mind. He became a true jedi the moment he struck Vader down and let him live. Which is what most light siders will do. And I'm not getting into the whole EU thing. If you want to read about it, head over to wookiepedia. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page