What is the reason, for a war against Iran ? - Page 3

Oberon · 03-20-12, 11:31 AM

The thing is, the US is going to do what the US thinks is best for the US, if it benefits another country as well then that is good, but at the end of the day if Washington has to step on some toes in order to keep its interests in line, then it will do that. Just the same as just about every superpower has done in its history stretching all the way back to the Roman and Egyptian empires.
Does that make it right? Well, that depends on who you ask, just like everything in history does.
China does not have the power just yet to challenge the US openly, internally it's too weak, a house of cards. On the outside it looks strong but one well placed kick and the economy will crash. In about five to seven years when Beijing manages to balance out its trading, then there will be a contender, but for now the PRC is happy to just use soft power, which is where its strength lays.
Russia is...well...Russia, I don't think anyone can figure it out properly, but I think that its main interests lie within the former Warsaw Pact states, primarily the Baltics and Eastern Europe. It will be angry about an attack on Iran, but it won't intervene militarily because it has too much to lose from doing so, and so much more to gain from the US intervening.

I'm pretty confident the US is going to leave this one to Israel though and just provide intelligence support so that Israel can hit as much as it can on the first strike in order to maximise its effectiveness in the limited window of opportunity it will get.

Catfish · 03-20-12, 11:33 AM

@August
"a country may be hated or not whatever it does" - well.
I am sometimes wondering about the astonishment, the self-proclaimed good guys of the world show when they are confronted with other views.

Whether it was right or wrong for a country to do what it did, i cannot judge (well sometimes one can). But you have to admit that certain actions like some of the things nations do to other nations, do not everytime exactly plant love in the hearts of the bullied, if that is the right word ?

Anyway, it seems the higher étages of some governments have turned from trying out diplomatic means and a rapier now and then, to using the blunderbuss instead, and all of the time.

@MH: i did not understand this "misstablet" you wrote ? Or is this a play of words with the iPad tablet PC in the video ?

August · 03-20-12, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

@August
"a country may be hated or not whatever it does" - well.
I am sometimes wondering about the astonishment, the self-proclaimed good guys of the world show when they are confronted with other views.

I guess it's an opinion brought about by being constantly criticized and second guessed by countries who want the benefit of having a world policeman but won't or can't do the job themselves. We're criticized for creating Saddam Hussein and we're criticized for removing him. Sometimes it seems that no matter what we do, including nothing, it's wrong. It gets old.

Quote:

Whether it was right or wrong for a country to do what it did, i cannot judge (well sometimes one can). But you have to admit that certain actions like some of the things nations do to other nations, do not everytime exactly plant love in the hearts of the bullied, if that is the right word ?

Of course not because if you give it long enough everyone eventually finds reason to get upset over something. Being world cop is a loosing proposition regardless who does it. Personally I think we should resign from the position and let the worlds chips fall where they may.

Quote:

Anyway, it seems the higher étages of some governments have turned from trying out diplomatic means and a rapier now and then, to using the blunderbuss instead, and all of the time.

100% agreement there although when it comes to how much force and diplomacy is enough hindsight is a lot better than foresight.

eddie · 03-20-12, 02:49 PM

I hope we don't need to go to war with Iran, for whatever reason. Here in the States, it seems we are in a state of perpetual war, or perpetual elections, I'm getting tired of both.

Stealhead · 03-20-12, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie

I hope we don't need to go to war with Iran, for whatever reason. Here in the States, it seems we are in a state of perpetual war, or perpetual elections, I'm getting tired of both.

So is our budget.

Jimbuna · 03-20-12, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

So is our budget.

Good/fair point.

Catfish · 03-20-12, 04:00 PM

OT regarding Iran -

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

" ... We didn't help bin Laden. We assisted the Mujahadeen to combat the Soviet invasion of their country. There is no evidence that he ever recieved aid or training from the US government. That's two unsupported claims you've made. ..."

Even the BBC tells that "Al Qaeda" did not exist.
"Al Quaeda" was the name of a CIA datafile including the name of - among others - Bin Laden, being generally a list of the members fighting the Russians in Afghanistan.
"Al-Qaida,(sic) literally 'the database,' was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians," admits former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook, whose Foreign Office portfolio included control of British Intelligence Agency MI-6 and the Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), in a column published by the UK Guardian newspaper.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/...523838,00.html

Also see here:

Also (but not only) see here (BBC documentary):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

There are thousands of documents on the net, but the best was the BBC and the german "Spiegel" documentation. But this information is now seven years old !

Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher:
"The Taliban was a construct of the CIA and was armed by the CIA"

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Oct. 7th, 2009:
"It seemed like a great idea, back in the 80s to embolden; and train and equip; Taliban, mujahidin, jihadists against the Soviet Union, which had invaded Afghanistan.
And with our help, and with the Pakistani support; this group; including, at that time, Bin Laden, defeated the Soviet Union."

http://wais.stanford.edu/USA/us_supp...ators8303.html

It is no deviation of business as usual, from Noriega to Saddam.

Stealhead · 03-20-12, 04:26 PM

Al-Qaida means the base in Arabic base as in the foundation in other words a belief.

Al Quaeda is merely another way to spell Al-Qaida it can also be spelled al-Qa'ida(no reason to place [sic] after any as they are all correct spellings.) the fact that your source article claims that two different spellings of the exact same words in Arabic draws into question anything else that it sates.

The Taliban and Al Quaeda are not one in the same they may have similar views but the Taliban formed in Pakistan during the 1980s and was and is comprised mostly of men that went Madrases that strongly promote the Saudi Arabian from of Islam known as wahhabism.Most of the money that formed the Taliban came from Saudi Arabian donations which obviously implies that Saudi Arabia or at least Saudis have had a desire to spread their version of Islam around the world.

All of your links are someones spin not the proven truth.Everything you link to is of highly questionable nature.

The entire Al-Qaida means data base is obvious spin to support the view that the CIA created Al-Qaida when in fact Al-Qaida created itself on its own and the name does not mean data base at all.This is what happens when people believe anything that they read or see on the internet or anywhere for that matter people seek to spread lies about facts to promote their views.

Catfish · 03-20-12, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Al-Qaida means the base in Arabic base as in the foundation in other words a belief.

Ok

I wonder how this could make its way in so much documentaries if it is a wrong translation, someone should have pointed that out ?

Quote:

All of your links are someones spin not the proven truth.Everything you link to is of highly questionable nature.

I admit that regarding the offspring of the name of Al-Quaeda, but i highly doubt there was no connection between the secret services and Bin-Laden, before he turned around.

Greetings and thanks for the correction,
Catfish

Stealhead · 03-20-12, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Ok

I wonder how this could make its way in so much documentaries if it is a wrong translation, someone should have pointed that out ?

I admit that regarding the offspring of the name of Al-Quaeda, but i highly doubt there was no connection between the secret services and Bin-Laden, before he turned around.

Greetings and thanks for the correction,
Catfish

Perhaps because the truth is the most difficult thing to find it does not always display itself on a billboard with shining lights but lies and spin very often will.

There is no evidence what so ever that Bin Laden had any contact with any western agency perhaps he might have been a known face and name and directly dealt with the Pakistani ISI and I find it doubtful if they did that they where concerned about more than what was occurring in Afghanistan.Also Bin Laden mostly only gave money and he also helped construct as a combatant he did nothing he was seen as what he was at the time some rich Saudi young man that kind of hung around and helped build some entrenchments and had some very fundamentalist views.

TLAM Strike · 03-20-12, 05:16 PM

I wish the CIA was a good as some people think it is. Using one man to build an army to defeat the Soviets. Assassinating every world leader who gets in their way.

Now we got headlines in the NYT saying the CIA says Iran is not working on nuclear weapons.

Of course whenever someone hears CIA and WMDs in the same sentience they immediately say: "The CIA said there were WMDs in Iraq and there weren't any!!!"

Soooo either the CIA is purposefully lying... there were no WMDs in Iraq and Iran is working on a bomb.

Or

The CIA is telling the truth... Iraq had (yet undiscovered) WMDs and Iran is not working on a bomb.

Stealhead · 03-20-12, 05:28 PM

The CIA created TLAM Strike 4 weeks after they created Al-Qaida "the Database" everyone knows that.

I agree people think that the CIA is some uber demigod that can do anything at its whim it is ridiculous when you think about it.
They make mistakes just as any other similar agency has but they where doing what was needed to be done at the given time period
nobody is perfect the best that can be done is to analyze the information that they have gathered effectively and in an unbiased manner
(obviously they know what we nor the news knows and they have made misjudgments here/ or those that they advised did) and react in the manner that best protects US interests.There job is very complex speaking only about the
analyst aspect it is a level of professionalism rarely seen.

nikimcbee · 03-20-12, 09:51 PM

re-election?

nikimcbee · 03-20-12, 09:54 PM

Quote:

TLAM Strike 4

Is that some sort of evil twin of TLAM?

Stealhead · 03-20-12, 10:14 PM

I don't how that 4 got in there but it does make it funnier.

03-20-12, 02:49 PM	#34
eddie Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,023 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	I hope we don't need to go to war with Iran, for whatever reason. Here in the States, it seems we are in a state of perpetual war, or perpetual elections, I'm getting tired of both. __________________ Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm kind to everyone, but when someone is unkind to me, weak is not what you are going to remember about me. Al Capone

03-20-12, 04:26 PM	#38
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Al-Qaida means the base in Arabic base as in the foundation in other words a belief. Al Quaeda is merely another way to spell Al-Qaida it can also be spelled al-Qa'ida(no reason to place [sic] after any as they are all correct spellings.) the fact that your source article claims that two different spellings of the exact same words in Arabic draws into question anything else that it sates. The Taliban and Al Quaeda are not one in the same they may have similar views but the Taliban formed in Pakistan during the 1980s and was and is comprised mostly of men that went Madrases that strongly promote the Saudi Arabian from of Islam known as wahhabism.Most of the money that formed the Taliban came from Saudi Arabian donations which obviously implies that Saudi Arabia or at least Saudis have had a desire to spread their version of Islam around the world. All of your links are someones spin not the proven truth.Everything you link to is of highly questionable nature. The entire Al-Qaida means data base is obvious spin to support the view that the CIA created Al-Qaida when in fact Al-Qaida created itself on its own and the name does not mean data base at all.This is what happens when people believe anything that they read or see on the internet or anywhere for that matter people seek to spread lies about facts to promote their views. Last edited by Stealhead; 03-20-12 at 04:39 PM.

03-20-12, 05:16 PM	#41
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	I wish the CIA was a good as some people think it is. Using one man to build an army to defeat the Soviets. Assassinating every world leader who gets in their way. Now we got headlines in the NYT saying the CIA says Iran is not working on nuclear weapons. Of course whenever someone hears CIA and WMDs in the same sentience they immediately say: "The CIA said there were WMDs in Iraq and there weren't any!!!" Soooo either the CIA is purposefully lying... there were no WMDs in Iraq and Iran is working on a bomb. Or The CIA is telling the truth... Iraq had (yet undiscovered) WMDs and Iran is not working on a bomb. __________________ Last edited by TLAM Strike; 03-20-12 at 05:37 PM.

03-20-12, 05:28 PM	#42
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	The CIA created TLAM Strike 4 weeks after they created Al-Qaida "the Database" everyone knows that. I agree people think that the CIA is some uber demigod that can do anything at its whim it is ridiculous when you think about it. They make mistakes just as any other similar agency has but they where doing what was needed to be done at the given time period nobody is perfect the best that can be done is to analyze the information that they have gathered effectively and in an unbiased manner (obviously they know what we nor the news knows and they have made misjudgments here/ or those that they advised did) and react in the manner that best protects US interests.There job is very complex speaking only about the analyst aspect it is a level of professionalism rarely seen. Last edited by Stealhead; 03-20-12 at 05:41 PM.

03-20-12, 09:51 PM	#43
nikimcbee Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Patroling the Slot. Posts: 17,952 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	re-election? __________________

03-20-12, 11:31 AM	#31
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	The thing is, the US is going to do what the US thinks is best for the US, if it benefits another country as well then that is good, but at the end of the day if Washington has to step on some toes in order to keep its interests in line, then it will do that. Just the same as just about every superpower has done in its history stretching all the way back to the Roman and Egyptian empires. Does that make it right? Well, that depends on who you ask, just like everything in history does. China does not have the power just yet to challenge the US openly, internally it's too weak, a house of cards. On the outside it looks strong but one well placed kick and the economy will crash. In about five to seven years when Beijing manages to balance out its trading, then there will be a contender, but for now the PRC is happy to just use soft power, which is where its strength lays. Russia is...well...Russia, I don't think anyone can figure it out properly, but I think that its main interests lie within the former Warsaw Pact states, primarily the Baltics and Eastern Europe. It will be angry about an attack on Iran, but it won't intervene militarily because it has too much to lose from doing so, and so much more to gain from the US intervening. I'm pretty confident the US is going to leave this one to Israel though and just provide intelligence support so that Israel can hit as much as it can on the first strike in order to maximise its effectiveness in the limited window of opportunity it will get.

03-20-12, 11:33 AM	#32
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	@August "a country may be hated or not whatever it does" - well. I am sometimes wondering about the astonishment, the self-proclaimed good guys of the world show when they are confronted with other views. Whether it was right or wrong for a country to do what it did, i cannot judge (well sometimes one can). But you have to admit that certain actions like some of the things nations do to other nations, do not everytime exactly plant love in the hearts of the bullied, if that is the right word ? Anyway, it seems the higher étages of some governments have turned from trying out diplomatic means and a rapier now and then, to using the blunderbuss instead, and all of the time. @MH: i did not understand this "misstablet" you wrote ? Or is this a play of words with the iPad tablet PC in the video ?

03-20-12, 10:14 PM	#45
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I don't how that 4 got in there but it does make it funnier.