Libyans desecrate WWII allied war graves

[soopaman2]

In all fairness the fight in Africa was to defend/ attack European colonial interests.

Not saying it is right or that I condone it. Just saying the reasons were not noble in the first place.

When the French start peeing on allied graves, then I will get upset. Our cause was at least noble there.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

In all fairness the fight in Africa was to defend/ attack European colonial interests.

For the British, it was about logistic supply lines in the mediterranean (Suez, Gibralatar) and the option to interrupt them (Germany) , and oil supply lines to the South-East ME. Germany for the main assisted the Italians who tried to deny the Brits their strategic interst. For Britain , the battole wasmore important, probably, since the UK was in danger to get strangled in the North Alantic, and had to defend the Germans in the air battle for Britain, with a German invasion considered to be a realistic threat for some time.

[_dgn_]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Honestly things like this only make me feel that organized religion is bad for humanity not just a particular religion.Some Christians and Muslims have been fighting each other for many generations both sides did nasty things to the other during the crusades.Both sides have done nasty things to the other during the Lebanon Wars.Some Hindus and Muslims wish to wipe each other out on the Indian subcontinent.Some Jews and Muslims have be killing the other for many generations as well with both sides being guilty of nasty acts.
This fact leads me to feel that by and large organized religion is to blame.Almost every religion claims that it is right and all others are wrong and that makes it very easy first to use fear of damn nation to control people and it makes it very easy to make non believers as something less than human.

All religions ? The French philosopher Ernest Renan made a difference between the 3 monotheist religions (Judaism, Christianism and Islam) and the other ones.
For him, these 3 religions are hard, dogmatic and they regard themself as universal. But in fact, they were worked by their hard environment : desert ! The hot, vacuum, nude and infinite desert. A real hell on the Earth ...

Originally Posted by Stealhead

You need to read up a little more on the Crusades as well _dgn_ it is a great example of how organized religion is bad for all humanity.

Which books do you recommend ?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

In all fairness the fight in Africa was to defend/ attack European colonial interests.

Not saying it is right or that I condone it. Just saying the reasons were not noble in the first place.

When the French start peeing on allied graves, then I will get upset. Our cause was at least noble there.

Lets not forget the Germans wanted to push out of Africa, cross Iraq and invade Iran/President Day Azerbaijan to capture the oil fields. The Germans even sent Gebirgsjager units to the African front in anticipation of this. Why don't the people from the region celebrate this fact? Lets look at some of the Axis's allies in the region such as al-Husseini, a guy who recruited Muslims for the SS. Africa and the Middle East were on "Our Side" for WWII at the point of a rifle, if it wasn't for 'western colonial interests' the list of Nazi allied countries would have gotten a lot longer.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Lets not forget the Germans wanted to push out of Africa, cross Iraq and invade Iran/President Day Azerbaijan to capture the oil fields. The Germans even sent Gebirgsjager units to the African front in anticipation of this. Why don't the people from the region celebrate this fact? Lets look at some of the Axis's allies in the region such as al-Husseini, a guy who recruited Muslims for the SS. Africa and the Middle East were on "Our Side" for WWII at the point of a rifle, if it wasn't for 'western colonial interests' the list of Nazi allied countries would have gotten a lot longer.

The 60 years of poor relations that followed the Second World War likely play a large role in why the West is not celebrated.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Lets not forget the Germans wanted to push out of Africa, cross Iraq and invade Iran/President Day Azerbaijan to capture the oil fields. The Germans even sent Gebirgsjager units to the African front in anticipation of this. Why don't the people from the region celebrate this fact?

When I was there, I got repeatedly celebrated (as a German) for my ancestors having killed so wonderfully many Jews. I should be very proud of our history, they said.

No joke, they really did. Not always, but far too often. Same in Iran, of course, and Turkey. From the metropoles to the urban areas.

Lovely.

[_dgn_]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Lets look at some of the Axis's allies in the region such as al-Husseini, a guy who recruited Muslims for the SS.

Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini ? The Palestinian Arab nationalist, who was Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ?
He is sometimes given as Yasser Arafat's grand-uncle, but it isn't certain.

[soopaman2]

I was not trying to say the allies had no business there, just that the colonial map in Africa had alot of Euro (allied and Axis) colors on it.

And that the fight there had nothing to do with the actual citizens of the countries, but of politics elsewheres.

I do not expect allegiance from them honestly.

Unlike say the Normandy invasion, or Market Garden (failed), that served to liberate a country, and not preserve imperialistic ties.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

The 60 years of poor relations that followed the Second World War likely play a large role in why the West is not celebrated.

Sure.. you force the colonial dirty politics on some ME couturiers that made them filthy reach off western money.
You fought cold war and terrorism in ME.
You support popular dictators who become unpopular, you forced democracy you support Zionists colonialism.
You make Muslim kill Muslim by not supporting nobody.

They sell to you ,get reach and preach to hate you and your corrupted western open culture...and you are responsible for all the wrong doing.
Actually they have every reason to hate themselves but its much easier and productive to blame others.

Its some western superiority complex which causes people to blame themselves for all the wrongs that Arabs mostly do to themselves.
Its all because of western politics because they are too dumb to be so stupid or crafty...whatever you call it.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by MH

Sure.. you force the colonial dirty politics on some ME couturiers that made them filthy reach off western money.
You fought cold war and terrorism in ME.
You support dictators, you forced democracy you support Zionists colonialism.
You make Muslim kill Muslim by not supporting nobody.

They sell to you ,get reach and preach to hate you and your corrupted western open culture...and you are responsible for all the wrong doing.
Actually they have every reason to hate themselves but its much easier and productive to blame others.

Its some western superiority complex which causes people to blame themselves for all the wrongs that Arabs mostly do to themselves.
Its all because of western politics because they are too dumb to be so stupid or crafty...whatever you call it.

That's a strawman argument; I assigned no blame. The salient issue is that relations are not good between the western powers and the arabic states, and this is the reason that they don't like us and don't want to celebrate us.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I was not trying to say the allies had no business there, just that the colonial map in Africa had alot of Euro (allied and Axis) colors on it.

And that the fight there had nothing to do with the actual citizens of the countries, but of politics elsewheres.

I do not expect allegiance from them honestly.

Unlike say the Normandy invasion, or Market Garden (failed), that served to liberate a country, and not preserve imperialistic ties.

Egypt was granted Independence from the UK in 1922.
Libya was a pair of Italian colony captured by the allies, unified and given independence by the allied powers.
Syria was left a republic when allied troops pulled out.

By the end of the 1950s early 1960s all those countries would have their democracies usurped by dictators (one of whom only died last year).

Seems that where ever else Allied troops bled in the war democratic nations sprung up (the Philippines, France, Netherlands, Germany, India), except for the ME.

Originally Posted by _dgn_

Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini ? The Palestinian Arab nationalist, who was Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ?
He is sometimes given as Yasser Arafat's grand-uncle, but it isn't certain.

Indeed that el-Husseini.

Originally Posted by Skybird

When I was there, I got repeatedly celebrated (as a German) for my ancestors having killed so wonderfully many Jews. I should be very proud of our history, they said.

No joke, they really did. Not always, but far too often. Same in Iran, of course, and Turkey. From the metropoles to the urban areas.

Lovely.

You know I've heard of atheist/agnostic troops adding a christian denomination on to their dogtags in case they are captured; a "Masihi" is likely to get better treatment than a "Kafir". Never heard of adding a 'von'.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by MH

Its some western superiority complex which causes people to blame themselves for all the wrongs that Arabs mostly do to themselves.

Wow, yeah.

But religion is a great control mechanism, especially when you can die for non adherence, and it is not an outrage, but simply the law.

Rape victims are blamed in the middle east.
Am I rascist for thinking that savage?
Honor killings?

I only wonder why these people have been living the same way they were when Muhammed led them 600 years ago...

It is because their religion allows no change. It is blasphemous to do so.

Say what you want about our pope through history, but they did apologize to Galileo for his inquisition and house arrest for his scientific theories.

Meanwhile in Muzzy land, they still stone to death rape victims in the name of honor.

Huh? Honor? Thats honorable?

Obviously a different moral system.

Yes they are animals, but they kinda owe us for hundreds of years of crusades...
(that we started in order to present an external enemy to keep our feudal fiefdoms together)

[MH]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

That's a strawman argument; I assigned no blame. The salient issue is that relations are not good between the western powers and the arabic states, and this is the reason that they don't like us and don't want to celebrate us.

Consider it as culture/values clash and incompatibility in general.
If it wasn't for economical issues you probably would not care...

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by MH

Consider it as culture/values clash and incompatibility in general.
If it wasn't for economical issues you probably would not care...

Me? I don't care now. As for the United States, you are right. Look at Africa; the US is content to sit back and let things go from bad to worse. If they had something that the US was interested in, my country would probably be over there instead.

[_dgn_]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

Unlike say the Normandy invasion, or Market Garden (failed), that served to liberate a country, and not preserve imperialistic ties.

AMGOT is a good proof of liberation of a country after Normandy invasion.

AMGOT ? Yes : "Allied Military Government of Occupied Territories".

Then ? These territories were occupied or liberated ?