Who is attacking America?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

Oh really? Can you name a third party that should have been viable that was kept down by the existing parties? Maybe what you call brainwashing sounds more like a case of sour grapes.

Money. Advertising. Influence. The existing parties control all those. Ron Paul isn't ousted because of popularity. The people believe what their parties tell them. The only way to get anywhere is by playing the party game.

Me, I have no sour grapes. I'm just an observer. I don't like either party, and I don't like any of their candidates. If I don't vote, I'm either lazy or perverse. So I write in the candidate I want, knowing that he doesn't have a chance because everyone else who feels as I do will still vote for the party candidate, because they've been told that if they don't they're "throwing away" their votes, and they "don't count".

Yes, the parties control everything where elections are concerned, and most of the people are indeed brainwashed into believing that's the only way.

As for reserving the right to complain only for myself that is ridiculous. I neither promote or prevent anyone from complaining.

And yet in the same paragraph you did both, which is why I responded as I did.

Y'know Europeans often chide us for complaining about gas prices so furiously when they already pay double or even triple and manage to live with it. My response is it's only our constant bitching about it that keeps those prices lower.

Complaining is good.

That battle like every other American political battle from pipelines to abortion rights these days is not over yet and that is the problem.

That the battle is not over is the problem. So we shouldn't complain?

That may be true about factions Steve but the founders had no problem forming them in spite of what they may have said. Heck the Continental Congress itself was considered a faction, a rebellious faction, by the royal government.

That is quite true. That it's human nature to form factions is undeniable. What is also undeniable is that it seems to be human nature to convince oneself that his faction, his ideal, his belief is the only correct one and then do his best to quash all dissenting opinion. That's what parties do, and that seems to be the case with many here.

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And yet in the same paragraph you did both, which is why I responded as I did.

Who have I prevented from speaking here Steve?

...quash all dissenting opinion. That's what parties do, and that seems to be the case with many here.

Again which dissenting opinion has been quashed here? Who are these mysterious "many" that you claim are at work here denying your rights?

Seems to me you're inventing a reason to get upset and a shadowy enemy to blame it on. That's a tactic used by every dictator who ever came to power.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

Who have I prevented from speaking here Steve?

You seem to miss the point, which is that in the one case you say that we've kept gas prices down by complaining, but on the other it's bad that the abortion question is still open. Do you want it closed? I was only commenting that you seem to be saying that in the one case complaint is good, but in the other having the question absolutely finalized, which precludes complaint, is good.

Again which dissenting opinion has been quashed here? Who are these mysterious "many" that you claim are at work here denying your rights?

Of course we can say anything we want here. I was referring to several members, on both sides, who pop in once in awhile and speak as if they were the final authority. You avoided my comment on people who "know" things being dangerous. Do you agree then with the members who tell you that the other guys are stupid? I only commented on absolutes.

Seems to me you're inventing a reason to get upset and a shadowy enemy to blame it on. That's a tactic used by every dictator who ever came to power.

Funny that you should parrot my original comment in this thread and try to turn it around on me. The funny part is that you could be right. I worry about such tendencies in myself. The difference I see is that is that I recognize that possibility. You've argued in a couple of good circles and made it personal, but my original comment still stands. The people who insist on "no compromise" must by nature believe that they are the only ones who have the correct answers. This makes them dangerous.

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

You seem to miss the point, which is that in the one case you say that we've kept gas prices down by complaining, but on the other it's bad that the abortion question is still open. Do you want it closed? I was only commenting that you seem to be saying that in the one case complaint is good, but in the other having the question absolutely finalized, which precludes complaint, is good.

Well yes I would like to see the abortion question settled because the constant acrimony over it is tearing at the fabric of my country. People have been assaulted, even murdered over it. I would think any sane person would want to see that ended, but again I don't care one way or the other whether it's legalized or banned so please don't try and pick a side for me.

Of course we can say anything we want here. I was referring to several members, on both sides, who pop in once in awhile and speak as if they were the final authority. You avoided my comment on people who "know" things being dangerous. Do you agree then with the members who tell you that the other guys are stupid? I only commented on absolutes.

I'd say that people have the right to speak if they are the final authority. That doesn't mean they are an authority at all, nor does it prevent you or me or anyone from voicing our disagreement or support. I still don't see where anyone is restricted from doing that in any way.

As for your dangerous comment, i didn't "avoid" it, I just didn't see much point in commenting on it. What you call dangerous one might call decisive. There is no one standard that can be applied to everyone and every situation and I'm not going to quote every word and comment people make. That is too much like work for a forum I frequent to unwind and relax.

Funny that you should parrot my original comment in this thread and try to turn it around on me. The funny part is that you could be right. I worry about such tendencies in myself. The difference I see is that is that I recognize that possibility. You've argued in a couple of good circles and made it personal, but my original comment still stands. The people who insist on "no compromise" must by nature believe that they are the only ones who have the correct answers. This makes them dangerous.

"Try to turn it around on you"? "Made it personal"?

Look Dude obviously I am no longer able to communicate my thoughts with the people on this board. Since you see my post as a personal attack then I guess i'll concede the field to you. I'm not getting into another pissing match, especially not with someone whom i have respect for.

I neither promote or prevent anyone from complaining.

Time to call bull on the drive by troll.
So Sport, You young man have never been Santorum or satan so cannot know anything on the subject so you had better not say anything about it, I think everyone should put you on the ignore list until you do shut up and leave this forum.



One very interesting point in this topic on page 2.....
Reading this thread, a very plausible hypothesis occurs to me.
very very plausible, yet last election cycle your current president got verbally flayed for saying something so obvious, though perhaps he got ripped into so much because he stated the obvious about both the religion and guns.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

Well yes I would like to see the abortion question settled because the constant acrimony over it is tearing at the fabric of my country. People have been assaulted, even murdered over it.

Which is certainly wrong, but that's the fault of the people who do it, not of the victims, nor of the difference itself. The question can never be over as long as two different opinions exist.

I would think any sane person would want to see that ended, but again I don't care one way or the other whether it's legalized or banned so please don't try and pick a side for me.

Where did I pick a side for you? I pointed out what I percieved as a contradiction in your observations on the power of complaint and its uses.

I'd say that people have the right to speak if they are the final authority. That doesn't mean they are an authority at all, nor does it prevent you or me or anyone from voicing our disagreement or support. I still don't see where anyone is restricted from doing that in any way.

Again I think you miss my point. I only spoke against people who assume they are right, and have the only answer. I didn't say they couldn't or shouldn't speak, but that they should be regarded with concern because they are incapable of seeing that they might be wrong, and that inability is what makes them dangerous.

As for your dangerous comment, i didn't "avoid" it, I just didn't see much point in commenting on it. What you call dangerous one might call decisive.

And decisiveness can be effectual. Or dangerous. There's no way of telling which it will be, and it should be watched carefully.

"Try to turn it around on you"? "Made it personal"?

Look Dude obviously I am no longer able to communicate my thoughts with the people on this board. Since you see my post as a personal attack then I guess i'll concede the field to you. I'm not getting into another pissing match, especially not with someone whom i have respect for.

Seems to me you're inventing a reason to get upset and a shadowy enemy to blame it on. That's a tactic used by every dictator who ever came to power.

That wasn't personal? I used "dictator" in a general sense, aimed at the idea that it is dictators who eliminate all compromise along with dissent. You seemed to be pointing the term directly at me.

I apologize if that wasn't the case.




Without compromise there would have been no Constitution.