VampireNightVision Bugfix

[Kafka BC]

@makman94

i am not a 'boy' for you (only my girl is calling me like this with a ....meaning) and i bet that if i called you the same way ...you will ,also, don't like it ! no ?...

Sorry, I did not see that you were from Crete.

I was not calling you a 'boy', in the English language using 'boy' at the start of a sentence is commonly used as a way of adding emphasis to the whole sentence. It is like saying Gosh, Wow, My God, or Damn, or a host of others. I guess I should have used one of them...it was not intended to be an insult.

it is very easy for me to dig at internet and find links concerning u-boats vissualities during day or night and come back here to make the 'expert' at forums. the point is that i will just make the 'expert' without trully have deep researched the theme. everybody can do that...it is the easy!(so reading only the links that you posted will not really help me or make me 'helpfull on discussions about such themes). what we are looking for(at least me) is someone that have made some deep research on the theme (vissualities during day and night) and give us a good COMPROMISE value for a max detection range during day and one good COPROMISE value for max detection during CLEAR night as concered the REALITY. i thought ,by reading your post, that you have make that deep research thats why i tried to discuss with you these themes.

Those articles that you seem to be dismissing as not 'expert' are documents from the Operations Evaluation Group Report No. 51 of the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations of the United States Navy. Are you telling me that you are more 'expert' than them?

....''apples and oranges''

"Apples and Oranges" is a shortened version of the English phrase "It is like comparing apples and oranges", both are fruit but which one tastes better, and where the answer is "it does not matter". I guess you are not familiar with the phrase. My apologies again.

i read it and i am thinking that the article in wikipedia (which i trust more than you---no offence here) is talking for observer with naked eyes...no binos at all

So, by your reasoning, I should be able to see the Empire State Building from 50 miles away (you can) and with the naked eye be able to count the windows as well (you can't). There are things like atmospheric turbulence and human eye resolution that you have ignored, and the wikipedia article does too.

but even if it is not like that ,how far would you say that it is a good AVERAGE COMPROMISED MAX range for visuality at clear day for using it ingame?

I am not going to talk about the mod. Nor do I wish to make any suggestions.

1mile = 1.852 kilometers . at miles in sea ,they mean the nautical miles so you need to check this too one more time

If they were using nautical miles they would have said 'nautical miles' and their diagrams would be using the abbreviation NM instead of MI, so I think you should check one more time.

yes , i am only interested at the mod so please post things about it here .this thread is for getting info for the mod

I see, others can post assumptions regarding the mod, but I can't post facts that you can use in the mod.

the only reason that this thread is still at 'high level' is thanks to me,H.Sie and Rubini and by no meaning thanks to the 'attackers' !

Are you implying that my initial post here is not 'high level' and that I am an 'attacker'?

I'm through discussing this.

[Graf Paper]

My own remarks and observations pertained to the general conversation and were not necessarily directed specifically at everything you had to say, Kafka. Context is at least as important as grammar. However, since you insist on coming at me like this...

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

What is this? Nowhere did I mention anything about the sharpness of the horizon at night as seen by the naked eye, so why you are trying to give me a Pseudoscience lesson is beyond me.

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

Having, in my youth, been out many times on clear moonless nights with plenty of stars (something no one seems to have considered as a light source) in the country away from lights and the glow from a city, I can attest to the fact that you can see the contrast difference between the sky and land.

(emphasis added).

That is the definition of a horizon.

Also, you say sky and land. I believe the discussion here concerns sky and sea.

Originally Posted by Graf Paper

I don't recall any of them saying they could spot mastheads at 35 kilometers with the naked eye...

Actually, it was you who failed to comprehend. I used the collective pronoun "them" in reference to the testimonies of crew serving aboard u-boats, which is plainly obvious by the active pronoun "they", as in "the persons who perfomed this action" in regards to the actual spotting of the mastheads in question.

Originally Posted by Graf Paper

Coal-fired vessels could be easily spotted from very great distances, some estimates around 50 miles..

Actually, one source for this figure comes from the direct statements of Lt. Robert Atkinson, DSC, RNR of K-137, H.M.S. Pink. I'd dare say that a commanding officer of a WWII Royal Navy corvette, serving as convoy escort, knows a few more things about ship's smoke and u-boat tactics. He ought to be ashamed of himself for misleading us all!

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

long ago I studied to become a marine engineer

You prove nothing by this statement. Being a such a mechanic does not qualify you for anything other than to work on marine power trains. Additionally, in studying to be a marine engineer, it in no way follows that you actually became one or served aboard any ocean-going vessels. This is pure grand-standing on your part, meant to intimidate others into silence by the perception this somehow makes you an authority on the matter. All sources you have cited thus far also happen to be among the first twenty or so hits one finds when typing "u-boat visual range" into Google's search engine.

You may belittle my reasoning by labeling it as "pseudoscience" yet you use your photography hobby as the basis for your "expertise" on visual properties as applied to u-boat tactics. Taking pictures of sunsets does not give your arguments any additional weight over what others here have said.

And then you attempt to humiliate me further by calling my use of language "High-handed"? You read into it only what you wish. If you feel intimidated by complete sentences and florid words, like "diffraction", that should not be my problem. It is the way I speak when using the written word and I owe no man an apology for it.

I have been polite and even supported some of the points you made. Then you repay that by tearing into me? What I say next must be said.

Disagreement with you is not an attack on your character, but you seem to wish to respond as though it were. "Overly aggressive", indeed! The only two things you have managed to prove thus far is the boorishness of your behavior and the cunning to suck up to Hitman while you continue to dish out insults to the rest. He is no more blind than the rest of us.

You even succeeded in raising the anger of Makman, one of this mod's authors and someone I rarely have seen respond with anything other than civility. You top that dubious achievement by marginalizing h.sie and Rubini, as well. All three of them have made real, lasting contributions to this community and should be shown respect, if only for their generosity.

The intent behind this entire thread, as stated by the mod's authors, was to reveal some measure of accuracy from the aggregate of opinion and knowledge contributed by this community. Your combative stance stifles that. You are free to disagree with others, but there is no reason it cannot be done with polite discourse.

You may continue to draw insult where there is none, bully your way over others, and shout down those who contradict you. However, I would advise that you reconsider your undirected anger before you make yourself unpopular.

As a postscript, I apologize to everyone here for contributing to any further derailment of this thread. I feel it necessary to not only stand up for myself publicly in the face of this hooligan, but for h.sie, Rubini, Makman, and others I hold in high regard because they have always been gentlemen, even when I have not. Keep the colors flying!

I've had my say and promise, henceforth, to stay on topic.

[Kafka BC]

@Graf Paper

Originally Posted by Graf Paper

My own remarks and observations pertained to the general conversation and were not necessarily directed specifically at everything you had to say, Kafka.

Really, then you should have said so.

Context is at least as important as grammar.

From my perspective, you fail at understanding context, at least mine anyway.

Also, you say sky and land. I believe the discussion here concerns sky and sea.

And I believe my discussion involved the night sky, the light gathering properties of large objective lenses, the fact that you could see ships on or near the horizon at night with the Kriegsmarine Binoculars in use at the time, and that the horizon for a U-Boat was 8 kilometers.

As I said, it was a way to simplify. If you could not get the gist that it was part of a lead-in to discussing Night Vision Binoculars...then that is not my problem. I was providing facts for consideration, some of which were not considered in previous discussions where assumptions were being made.

Right from the get go in your first two paragraphs you went off on a tangent totally unrelated to the points I was making. You assumed I knew nothing about, had not seen an ocean, nor been to sea, and questioned my 'visual acuity' and then proceeded to 'teach' me on something irrelevant. Your whole tone sounded demeaning and that you knew better than me. I found it offensive.

Actually, it was you who failed to comprehend. I used the collective pronoun "them" in reference to the testimonies of crew serving aboard u-boats, which is plainly obvious by the active pronoun "they", as in "the persons who perfomed this action" in regards to the actual spotting of the mastheads in question.

If you were agreeing with me, I could not tell, perhaps if you had clearly said so. From the first sentence and the way you structured the paragraph it appeared that you were contending something I did not say. Maybe I did misunderstand, but you contributed to that misunderstanding.

Actually, one source for this figure comes from the direct statements of Lt. Robert Atkinson, DSC, RNR of K-137, H.M.S. Pink. I'd dare say that a commanding officer of a WWII Royal Navy corvette, serving as convoy escort, knows a few more things about ship's smoke and u-boat tactics. He ought to be ashamed of himself for misleading us all!

That is what it is - a statement, which it prone to misinterpretation and exaggeration. Did he say a single ship or a convoy of many ships? Did he have a long base range-finder that can accurately tell the distance out to 50 miles? A corvette didn't have them.

Actually the misleading misconception I was referring to is the belief that all coal-fired ships belch dense black smoke. My mistake there, I should have pointed that out, but I didn't want to start an argument about it.

You prove nothing by this statement. Being a such a mechanic does not qualify you for anything other than to work on marine power trains. Additionally, in studying to be a marine engineer, it in no way follows that you actually became one or served aboard any ocean-going vessels.

That statement was to refute your assumption that I was a total landlubber.

So you think my Diploma and Certificates from The Nautical Institute of Nova Scotia are meaningless, and everything they taught me about marine diesels, steam turbines, triple-expansion engines, ship buoyancy and loading, and coal and oil fuel are as well. I must go tell them to stop wasting taxpayer's money.

And to show how little you know on the matter, part of the training to become a Marine Engineer involves actually going to sea, and I did for a bit, as a 4th class engineer cadet (meaning unpaid) to get my required sea-time, on board an oil tanker that went between the ports of Halifax, Montreal and St. John's. I did not pursue the career, turned out I didn't like being in the "bowels of the ship", and I needed a job that paid more than the meager stipend I was getting from the Government.

You may belittle my reasoning by labeling it as "pseudoscience" yet you use your photography hobby as the basis for your "expertise" on visual properties as applied to u-boat tactics. Taking pictures of sunsets does not give your arguments any additional weight over what others here have said.

No. I was using it as the basis of my "expertise" in regarding the resolving power of the human eye, the size and distance of an object, and the fact that optical devices such as binoculars with long focal lengths are subject to something called "camera shake", which becomes more acute when viewing objects at longer ranges, especially if they are hand held or if there is the slightest vibration of any kind. Tell me that doesn't happen on a moving U-Boat. Tactics has nothing to do with it.

It wasn't just a hobby, I actually made a few bucks doing it, not enough to live on though.

And then you attempt to humiliate me further by calling my use of language "High-handed"?

I said your "high handed use of assumptions". Read what I said about your first two paragraphs and your assumptions.

If you feel intimidated by complete sentences and florid words, like "diffraction", that should not be my problem.

Childish. I believe my big words can match your big words any day.

I have been polite and even supported some of the points you made.

Again, you did not make that clear. The first sentence of your forth paragraph:

Also, this mod primarily deals with night vision using the unaided eye, a fact I think some have missed while attempting to prove some points.

That sounded to me like you were discounting the information I provided on the Kriegsmarine Binoculars, sticking with using "the unaided eye" as a basis, and a jab at the points I was making. The rest of the paragraph sounded patronizing...like I didn't know these things and that I was a newbie. This again I found offensive.

Now, your last paragraph you did agree with me...on a conclusion I never made.

EDIT: I take that back, I now realize you were talking about the 'fog being the big bugaboo for U-Boats'. I didn't interpret it that way.

As for the rest of your speech I say "No Comment". I will let you and others make of it as their will.

[Victor Schutze]

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Noisy_Buoy

As for the sailor steve I wonder who has bitten this no lifer anyway ?

Sailor does it realy bothers you that I registered only few days ago or what ?

No, it doesn't bother me at all. I was just trying to draw you out, because we knew you were PapaKilo, and it worked. You couldn't help being the same old troll as always.

[Kafka BC]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

No, it doesn't bother me at all. I was just trying to draw you out, because we knew you were PapaKilo, and it worked. You couldn't help being the same old troll as always.

Noisy_Buoy was PapaKilo!!!!

Now, I am so truly and unimaginably embarrassed.

[Hitman]

He was Papakilo, Kentas, Contact ... when your paranoid these things happen. He will return, and we will ban him again, that's life ... simply ignore him and do not reply to posts from "new" members that appear as veterans when talking about the game. We will take care of the rest

[Kafka BC]

Originally Posted by Hitman

He was Papakilo, Kentas, Contact ... when your paranoid these things happen. He will return, and we will ban him again, that's life ... simply ignore him and do not reply to posts from "new" members that appear as veterans when talking about the game. We will take care of the rest

I have been using the Internet since the days before there were forums and used newsgroups for discussion. In all that time I have never encountered an actual troll, just people calling others that name.

This is a certainly a lesson for me . I bow to you Sensei.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Hitman

He was Papakilo, Kentas, Contact ... when your paranoid these things happen. He will return, and we will ban him again, that's life ... simply ignore him and do not reply to posts from "new" members that appear as veterans when talking about the game. We will take care of the rest

Very good advice, Hitman.

[Graf Paper]

A 50% reduction seems fine. It would fit fairly well in the 8 km and 16 km environments. I am unsure if it's as good for the 20 km environment, but 10 km isn't too much of a stretch for visual contact, given the range of distances quoted by everyone.

I know the SH3 developers settled on 8 km as the environment size after several WWII historical sources cited 5 miles as the maximum visual range one has while standing on the bridge of a u-boat. Given the surviving diaries, log books, and statements of actual sailors of the U-bootwaffe, it does make me wonder how this absolute number of 5 miles was ascertained. Was it done with mathematics or some other source? From what I have read of the books that often quote this number, there seems to be little clarification. The authors make no mention if this 5 mile limit is with or without optical aids. There is no specificity to define exactly when a ship is considered to be "spotted", either. Is it when the masthead, all or part of the superstructure, or the hull is in plain view?

When weighing this matter, I must lean strongly in favor of the testimony of men who were actually there. No scholar working amid stacks of books, rather than the stacked rollers of an Atlantic storm, can ever claim to have definitive knowledge. This leads me to conclude that the SH3 developers and historians got it wrong while the fans and modders of this community have always been right.

[SquareSteelBar]

Originally Posted by One_timer

...I'm gonna haunt this place till I die =] ...

some kind of pathological personality...

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by One_timer

Add to the list Kentas and Infamous CONTACT. (can't even remember all my temporary nicks already) Your efforts to stop me from being here is nothing compared to my wish to stay here no matter what nickname I own =]

This fight you will never win, I'm gonna haunt this place till I die =]

You tracked me, just because I wanted so, do not expect it will happen

again in the close future =]

P.S. I always hold my word!

Every time you show your hand you can rely on myself or fellow moderators to ban you.

P.S. I always keep my word too.

[h.sie]

http://www.u575.de/8Feindfahrt.html

May 5th, 1943, North-Atlantic

21:30: Visibility getting worse, fog, rain.
22:20h: convoy sighted in 12000m distance, suddenly coming out of haze.

Örps!

[Rubini]

Originally Posted by h.sie

http://www.u575.de/8Feindfahrt.html

May 5th, 1943, North-Atlantic

21:30: Visibility getting worse, fog, rain.
22:20h: convoy sighted in 12000m distance, suddenly coming out of haze.

Örps!

North Atlantic at spring-summer have long days...

[makman94]

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

@makman94

Sorry, I did not see that you were from Crete.

I was not calling you a 'boy', in the English language using 'boy' at the start of a sentence is commonly used as a way of adding emphasis to the whole sentence. It is like saying Gosh, Wow, My God, or Damn, or a host of others. I guess I should have used one of them...it was not intended to be an insult.---ok Kafka , i am sorry too ..case closed

Those articles that you seem to be dismissing as not 'expert' are documents from the Operations Evaluation Group Report No. 51 of the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations of the United States Navy. Are you telling me that you are more 'expert' than them? --- i said exactly the opposite but thats ok too

"Apples and Oranges" is a shortened version of the English phrase "It is like comparing apples and oranges", both are fruit but which one tastes better, and where the answer is "it does not matter". I guess you are not familiar with the phrase. My apologies again.---no need for apologies ,i just explained where i found the '31' km (as you saw it was not my 'imagination' ) and i did it (the explaination) becuase you asked for it and it was against 'your' '29.1km' and not against your 'bino' knowledge. i told you just this and nothing more than this: the 29.1 was found by geometrical formulas (the calculator you posted is using these formulas) and the '31km' is more correct value becuase it uses formulas that taking in account the atmospheric refraction.
i read this phrase at wikipedia : ''Results (from the spoken formulas) are sufficiently accurate for many purposes.''

So, by your reasoning, I should be able to see the Empire State Building from 50 miles away (you can) and with the naked eye be able to count the windows as well (you can't). There are things like atmospheric turbulence and human eye resolution that you have ignored, and the wikipedia article does too.---i repeat again here that i am not 'expert' on real situtations so i can't say what (how far) you can see from Kriegsmarine binos and thats why i 'need' the experts to give us some real ranges so i can't continue this further (my knowledge stops here) and thats why i asked you to give us an average copromise max visual range for clear day

I am not going to talk about the mod. Nor do I wish to make any suggestions. --- so , continue this conversation here will be just off topic. PM me if you like to tell me something more on this

If they were using nautical miles they would have said 'nautical miles' and their diagrams would be using the abbreviation NM instead of MI, so I think you should check one more time.---thats really very 'strange' for me. they talk for miles on sea and they are using the international mile ? i can't say anything more...it is just 'strange',thats it what i was thinking as i was glancing to the link

I see, others can post assumptions regarding the mod, but I can't post facts that you can use in the mod.

Are you implying that my initial post here is not 'high level' and that I am an 'attacker'? ---no, it was not for you and i don't believe that you are 'attacking' the thread .

I'm through discussing this.

look above ,
bye