[REL] Shoot at periscope

Rongel · 02-02-12, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Husksubsky

Now I tested with your test mission and it seem to work as purpoused. I put value to -15 again (GetContactDepth() >= -13) Felt weird that they could spot me with peri barly touching surface like they did when I put it to -17.
But what do they see actually? just periscope, or do they spot me like if I was surfaced when above this value?

Can I cruise around at 15.5 meters and all is safe since I m to deep for shooting and too shallow for depthcharge? Anyways its a big step in the right directon

thx

Thanks for the good report! Glad that you got it working!

Quote:

your picture say GetContactDepth() >= -13 and you describe GetContactDepth() >= -15..just a little adjust for liking?

Exactly. It's a small mistake, I've been testing what is the best depth value, right now using 15 meters.

Quote:

SO now Im curious what this value does: ContactPresenceIs(PRESENCE_SENSORS, 15)

This is how I think it goes: If a enemy ship has located you with sensors (it can be any sensor: visual, hydro, sonar, radar) it can open fire if the other condition (GetContactDepth() >= -13) is true also. So it doesn't even need to see you, if dd's sensors show that you are nearby in periscope depth, it will try to shoot you down. There is also a script called ContactPresenceIs(PRESENCE_LOOKOUT, 0) which makes the ships attack you only when the see you visually, but I thought the current is more interesting and challenging. Not 100 % sure which is more historically accurate.

What makes things complicated is that the escorts react always in a different way. Some tests go just beutifully, like you would except, but sometimes escorts do something stupid, like shoot at themselves. Can't figure out why the escorts sometimes continue attacking you even if the script conditions are false. I guess they just want to sink you that badly!

Quote:

Can I cruise around at 15.5 meters and all is safe since I m to deep for shooting and too shallow for depthcharge?

I think IRAI makes the escorts depthcharge you even if in periscope depth. I'm pretty sure I have witnessed this in my tests.

By the way, I did a long campaign play yesterday with this and had fun with Norwegian destroyer that I mistakenly thought as a neutral unit. I just cruised in periscope depth but then cannon shells started to hit the water breaking the radio and radar. I dove immediately and it stopped the shooting and started to drop depthcharges. It was like an angry bee!

Vanilla · 02-02-12, 05:25 AM

Great mod, Rongel!

As of the realism of firing at a submerged submarine, to my knowledge most of the secondary naval guns had special anti-submarine shells, AFAIK they were diving shells - special shells with blunt nose so you shot it into the water and it did not bounce of the water but dived and continued for some distance submerged hopefuly meeting the submarine. Moreover you read in reports of real ASW actions that planes often strafed the spot where the submarine had submerged with their guns, I recon that it is modelled in the AI logic by developers, that is why, I recon, the ships continue to shoot at the last known spot for some time with your mod as well since they use plane's script, I recon that is realistic as well - why would a ship not want to shell the last known spot knowing that the sub is relatively slow to escape? Imagining myself as a DD captain I think I would still fire guns at last know spot for a couple of minutes even if I did not see the periscope any longer and even if I did not have ASW shells, at least there is some hope that a shell would strike something fragile or the sub would be damaged by the HE-shell explosion, even if the shells did not strike they at least would force the sub to be frightened and stay submerged so negating a possibility for the sub to attack me or the convoy - you see enemy, you shoot.

The only unrealistic thing I see is the fact that they continue for far too long when you submerge while it should be no more than a minute or two in reality.

If only we could get of the friendly-fire issue... but it is not this mod's issue since if planes do not check for friendly-fire condition they can strafe a friendly DD on a DC run. That means that it is a stock AI error.

Husksubsky · 02-02-12, 02:02 PM

Good points Vanilla.
Thx for answer Rongel, I will keep testing but it s hard to keep track of whats happening sometimes.

I m still curious wether that getcontactdepth means your just as visible to the game as if you were surfaced when above 15 m. doesn t look that way since they stop shooting with peri down but anyways I WANT them to shoot if they spot me but I DONT want them to spot me like if I m surfaced when I sneak silent under the surface

.

TheDarkWraith · 02-02-12, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Husksubsky

Good points Vanilla.
Thx for answer Rongel, I will keep testing but it s hard to keep track of whats happening sometimes.

I m still curious wether that getcontactdepth means your just as visible to the game as if you were surfaced when above 15 m. doesn t look that way since they stop shooting with peri down but anyways I WANT them to shoot if they spot me but I DONT want them to spot me like if I m surfaced when I sneak silent under the surface

.

GetContactDepth only returns the depth of the contact and nothing more.

Rongel · 02-02-12, 04:26 PM

Thanks for the info Vanilla!

Glad to hear that they actually fired cannons at submerged subs! Otherwise this would have been somewhat pointless in the first place!

Quote:

I m still curious wether that getcontactdepth means your just as visible to the game as if you were surfaced when above 15 m. doesn t look that way since they stop shooting with peri down but anyways I WANT them to shoot if they spot me but I DONT want them to spot me like if I m surfaced when I sneak silent under the surface

.

Quote:

GetContactDepth only returns the depth of the contact and nothing more.

Yep, it doesn't mean that they can automaticly spot you if you are above 15 meters. If they have spotted you with sensors and you are above 15 meters, only then they can fire at you. So you can still sneak silently in periscope depth and they won't spot you.

Been messing with the scripts like crazy (yes, I'm a bit obsessed by this...) but no significant progress. However, I noticed one thing! When you are in periscope depth, and the periscope is up, and they have spotted you and started firing, do not lower the scope, but just dive to safety. Now when you pass the 15 meter line, enemies will see it and know that you are too deep to attack with cannons. This way even DD's will instantly stop firing you.

I'll try to explain it with example... If you just lower the scope when you are attacked with cannons in periscope depth, escorts lose your contact and continue firing the area several minutes. They think that you still might be there even if you are 100 meters below. But if you dive with periscope up (with -15 depth value it has to be all way up) they see you as you pass the magical line and understand to stop. Ofcourse this is not a perfect way either, you are basically helping the escorts by telling them your depth!

So close....

pedrobas · 02-02-12, 05:59 PM

Husksubsky · 02-02-12, 10:59 PM

I m a bit obsessed too. Thx a lot TDW for clearing that out. (Not that you didn t know Rongel) Finally even I understand how this works a bit more...I think..
I really hated this issue with SH4 and was sad to see it still existed in SH5. They still cant hurt you much at 15 + so I miss those guns Vanilla talked about. Ive heard that depthcharges usully had a preset at 30 60 or 90 meters can that be true? anyways they should have guns to take you out with at shallow depth. Or run fast over you so they would be at somewhat safe distance when the depthcharges explode..(if they could explode above 30 m)anyways I cant think that a sub in reallife would survive long in PD with destroyers present.were supposed to dive away arent we?

Before I play more with the numbers. out of what you say I conclude that
ContactPresenceIs(PRESENCE_SENSORS, 15) . tells the guns to fire if GetContactDepth tells you are above 15.

I stick to visual spot for now.
If they spot my scope when I m at 16 they won t open fire. why not put them both to 17? I can t think of any downsides to it except they started to fire at me even before my scope was above the surface in your testmod.
That means I was spotted but can not tell now wich sensor did it. When I scout I try to keep my scope just above the surface and for short periods. I m still a bit scared that these are the things we mess with to some degree. that it s not how high your scope actually is but how deep you are with scope fully raised. Or have the sensors their own scripts and these shipweapons scripts that you change only come in use if you ALREADY have been spotted.

Sorry for all these qustions but I m very curios

02-02-12, 05:25 AM	#2
Vanilla Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: St. Petersburg, Russia Posts: 264 Downloads: 72 Uploads: 0	Great mod, Rongel! As of the realism of firing at a submerged submarine, to my knowledge most of the secondary naval guns had special anti-submarine shells, AFAIK they were diving shells - special shells with blunt nose so you shot it into the water and it did not bounce of the water but dived and continued for some distance submerged hopefuly meeting the submarine. Moreover you read in reports of real ASW actions that planes often strafed the spot where the submarine had submerged with their guns, I recon that it is modelled in the AI logic by developers, that is why, I recon, the ships continue to shoot at the last known spot for some time with your mod as well since they use plane's script, I recon that is realistic as well - why would a ship not want to shell the last known spot knowing that the sub is relatively slow to escape? Imagining myself as a DD captain I think I would still fire guns at last know spot for a couple of minutes even if I did not see the periscope any longer and even if I did not have ASW shells, at least there is some hope that a shell would strike something fragile or the sub would be damaged by the HE-shell explosion, even if the shells did not strike they at least would force the sub to be frightened and stay submerged so negating a possibility for the sub to attack me or the convoy - you see enemy, you shoot. The only unrealistic thing I see is the fact that they continue for far too long when you submerge while it should be no more than a minute or two in reality. If only we could get of the friendly-fire issue... but it is not this mod's issue since if planes do not check for friendly-fire condition they can strafe a friendly DD on a DC run. That means that it is a stock AI error. Last edited by Vanilla; 02-02-12 at 05:37 AM.

02-02-12, 10:59 PM	#7
Husksubsky XO Join Date: May 2008 Location: oslo,Norway Posts: 424 Downloads: 254 Uploads: 0	I m a bit obsessed too. Thx a lot TDW for clearing that out. (Not that you didn t know Rongel) Finally even I understand how this works a bit more...I think.. I really hated this issue with SH4 and was sad to see it still existed in SH5. They still cant hurt you much at 15 + so I miss those guns Vanilla talked about. Ive heard that depthcharges usully had a preset at 30 60 or 90 meters can that be true? anyways they should have guns to take you out with at shallow depth. Or run fast over you so they would be at somewhat safe distance when the depthcharges explode..(if they could explode above 30 m)anyways I cant think that a sub in reallife would survive long in PD with destroyers present.were supposed to dive away arent we? Before I play more with the numbers. out of what you say I conclude that ContactPresenceIs(PRESENCE_SENSORS, 15) . tells the guns to fire if GetContactDepth tells you are above 15. I stick to visual spot for now. If they spot my scope when I m at 16 they won t open fire. why not put them both to 17? I can t think of any downsides to it except they started to fire at me even before my scope was above the surface in your testmod. That means I was spotted but can not tell now wich sensor did it. When I scout I try to keep my scope just above the surface and for short periods. I m still a bit scared that these are the things we mess with to some degree. that it s not how high your scope actually is but how deep you are with scope fully raised. Or have the sensors their own scripts and these shipweapons scripts that you change only come in use if you ALREADY have been spotted. Sorry for all these qustions but I m very curios Last edited by Husksubsky; 02-02-12 at 11:09 PM.

02-02-12, 02:02 PM	#3
Husksubsky XO Join Date: May 2008 Location: oslo,Norway Posts: 424 Downloads: 254 Uploads: 0	Good points Vanilla. Thx for answer Rongel, I will keep testing but it s hard to keep track of whats happening sometimes. I m still curious wether that getcontactdepth means your just as visible to the game as if you were surfaced when above 15 m. doesn t look that way since they stop shooting with peri down but anyways I WANT them to shoot if they spot me but I DONT want them to spot me like if I m surfaced when I sneak silent under the surface .

02-02-12, 05:59 PM	#6
pedrobas Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Huelva, Spain Posts: 664 Downloads: 301 Uploads: 0