We got scared - Page 6

Takeda Shingen · 01-30-12, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

I find it ironic that the person most dogmatic in this thread so far is dead-set on an unshakeable belief in the observability of atheism, and the all-encompassing reliability science

I found that amusing as well. Unfortunately, he has become almost a personification of what he decries about religion. The sad part is that he has a legitimate point, but his hostility makes establishing common ground difficult at best. Unfortunately, we see this style of argument far too often on these forums, but it usually is contained within the political threads. Still, this has the reputation of being a hot-headed topic as well.

Kudos to the rest of the membership for keeping the past five pages above board and clean in what could have been a very ugly thread. As moderators, we frequently deal in problems. It can give us a skewed view of the general temperment of the forum. This thread has, for the most part, reaffirmed my faith in the members of this board and for that I thank you all. You gave me a pick-me-up when I needed it.

tater · 01-30-12, 06:56 PM

Religion is a human invention, so it shares all the flaws of humanity at large.

The trouble is that it gives those problems infinite authority.

Takeda Shingen · 01-30-12, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Religion is a human invention, so it shares all the flaws of humanity at large.

The trouble is that it gives those problems infinite authority.

It absolutely does, but so do each of man's constructs. Politics, for example, gives a select few control over the many. It is no wonder then, that some of man's earliest political structures were religiously-oriented. The village shaman was often one of the leaders of the community. The Roman Catholic Church was the largest political player in feudal-age Europe. Religion has been in evolution, as has the rest of man's social structures.

tater · 01-30-12, 07:03 PM

The burden of proof for theism is on the part of the theist. An incredible beliefs require pretty incredible proof.

Deism at least is free of this. Arguments that claim to prove religion by pointing at "the miracle of creation" do not prove their theism, or even attempt to. To do this, you have to prove that you know the mind of god. It's entirely possible to be agnostic on deism (I am), and an atheist (since no theist religions have proved their veracity).

Takeda Shingen · 01-30-12, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

The burden of proof for theism is on the part of the theist. An incredible beliefs require pretty incredible proof.

Deism at least is free of this. Arguments that claim to prove religion by pointing at "the miracle of creation" do not prove their theism, or even attempt to. To do this, you have to prove that you know the mind of god. It's entirely possible to be agnostic on deism (I am), and an atheist (since no theist religions have proved their veracity).

Again, I am not attempting to prove theism to anyone on this forum. It is also not what this thread was about. We were asked by Sammi what we thought a world without religion would be. I gave my personal view and my personal rationale. It was not an attempt to convince, but a glimpse into my personal belief. It is okay if you disagree with it, but I am not making it a point of contention, nor do I attempt to persuade anyone of it's value. Honetly, I did not think it would get much of a reaction.

CCIP · 01-30-12, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

It absolutely does, but so do each of man's constructs. Politics, for example, gives a select few control over the many. It is no wonder then, that some of man's earliest political structures were religiously-oriented.

And let's not forget the contributions to science, philosophy and education made by religion. In terms of Christianity for example, someone who thinks that religious thought is all dogma has obviously never read St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Friedrich Schleiermacher and countless others.

In fact the notion of science and religion being in opposition is very much a false construct, and has nothing to do with the nature of things. Dogma is the enemy of reason, not religion, spirituality or even scriptural study. Just that some people have trouble seeing past surface appearances and don't want to engage with the symbolic side of life, which is as rich and complicated - regardless of the religious tradition that might originate it. This goes for people of both extremes by the way.

tater · 01-30-12, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Religion has been in evolution, as has the rest of man's social structures.

Well the evolution stopped rather a long time ago. Make up a religion tomorrow. You will be called a cult leader. The 3 major monotheisms already have claim to all the knowledge of the universe, and they wrote that down unerringly a long time ago.

Someone like myself who studied physics 25 years ago is hopelessly out of date in physics, yet a biblical (or koranic) expert from 250 (or far longer) years ago knows no less than a biblical expert now. What has evolved in judaism and christianity is that the people who claim membership to the religions ignore huge swaths of it. How many people who want the 10 Commandments treated with respect in a courtroom know that the punishment for violating most of them is death? In the case of islam, the trouble is that it is currently evolving in the wrong direction---towards being more true to the book, rather than dumping all the insane parts. Regardless, though, the insane parts are still there, even in the other 2 that precede islam. Ignoring them makes for better people and societies, but the religions themselves are no better.

Religion is by definition irrational. Science is known in common sense as "trial and error." Every human uses the scientific method almost every day. If they treated religion with the same critical eye they use to so much as cross a busy street, they'd have dumped it long ago.

For the "spiritual" take from a non-religious POV, Sam Harris is pretty interesting, actually.

Takeda Shingen · 01-30-12, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

And let's not forget the contributions to science, philosophy and education made by religion. In terms of Christianity for example, someone who thinks that religious thought is all dogma has obviously never read St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Friedrich Schleiermacher and countless others.

In fact the notion of science and religion being in opposition is very much a false construct, and has nothing to do with the nature of things. Dogma is the enemy of reason, not religion, spirituality or even scriptural study. Just that some people have trouble seeing past surface appearances and don't want to engage with the symbolic side of life, which is as rich and complicated - regardless of the religious tradition that might originate it. This goes for people of both extremes by the way.

Very true. And, as much as it pains me to concede it, we would not have modern academics without the Roman Catholic Church. I am a tremendous detractor of Catholicism, but they kept the torch of knowledge lit during the dark times that followed the fall of Rome.

tater · 01-30-12, 07:14 PM

I wasn't really arguing with you, per se, just going off on a tangent. My bad.

I find it an interesting discussion to have, and the internets is sort of the best place... it can tend to blow up at dinner parties

Takeda Shingen · 01-30-12, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

I find it an interesting discussion to have, and the internets is sort of the best place... it can tend to blow up at dinner parties

Isn't that the truth! And I was not offended. Just wanted to clarify my stance.

CCIP · 01-30-12, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I am a tremendous detractor of Catholicism, but they kept the torch of knowledge lit during the dark times that followed the fall of Rome.

...as did Muslim and Jewish scholars, by the way. If it weren't for them, we would not have access to many of the Greek and Roman texts that later helped bring about the rebirth of classical science, philosophy and education in the Renaissance later on.

u crank · 01-30-12, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

In fact the notion of science and religion being in opposition is very much a false construct, and has nothing to do with the nature of things. Dogma is the enemy of reason, not religion, spirituality or even scriptural study. Just that some people have trouble seeing past surface appearances and don't want to engage with the symbolic side of life, which is as rich and complicated - regardless of the religious tradition that might originate it. This goes for people of both extremes by the way.

Excellent observation. I couldn't agree more. I see no personal conflict between science and faith.

kiwi_2005 · 01-30-12, 07:38 PM

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. Ecclesiastes 3:8

Do not be afraid of those (man) who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (spirit). Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body.
Matthew 10:28

Read the book of Ecclesiastes you pagans then you wont be scared anymore...

Plus its one of my favorite books in the bible different from all the others & tells it like it is.

Anyways I'm off to play my pagan RPG's.

Takeda Shingen · 01-30-12, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. Ecclesiastes 3:8

Do not be afraid of those (man) who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (spirit). Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body.
Matthew 10:28

Read the book of Ecclesiastes you pagans then you wont be scared anymore...

Plus its one of my favorite books in the bible different from all the others & tells it like it is.

Anyways I'm off to play my pagan RPG's.

Fus Roh Dah, baby. Fus Roh Dah.

TLAM Strike · 01-30-12, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

Do not be afraid of those (man) who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (spirit). Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body.
Matthew 10:28

Sooo.... a Time Lord? They seem to have had that capability...

The Bible is starting to make sense...

01-30-12, 06:56 PM	#77
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Religion is a human invention, so it shares all the flaws of humanity at large. The trouble is that it gives those problems infinite authority. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

01-30-12, 07:03 PM	#79
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The burden of proof for theism is on the part of the theist. An incredible beliefs require pretty incredible proof. Deism at least is free of this. Arguments that claim to prove religion by pointing at "the miracle of creation" do not prove their theism, or even attempt to. To do this, you have to prove that you know the mind of god. It's entirely possible to be agnostic on deism (I am), and an atheist (since no theist religions have proved their veracity). __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

01-30-12, 07:14 PM	#84
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I wasn't really arguing with you, per se, just going off on a tangent. My bad. I find it an interesting discussion to have, and the internets is sort of the best place... it can tend to blow up at dinner parties __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

01-30-12, 07:38 PM	#88
kiwi_2005 Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2004 Location: Aeoteroa Posts: 7,382 Downloads: 223 Uploads: 1	A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. Ecclesiastes 3:8 Do not be afraid of those (man) who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (spirit). Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body. Matthew 10:28 Read the book of Ecclesiastes you pagans then you wont be scared anymore... Plus its one of my favorite books in the bible different from all the others & tells it like it is. Anyways I'm off to play my pagan RPG's. __________________ RIP kiwi_2005 Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others.