Sorry another targeting question

[Pisces]

Ok, good to hear there is no problem between us.

The word "reason" is probably not the right word I could use. I admit. Better would have been "those tables are not required", or "not necessary". I'm not sure what you mean with "damped" though. I do not need those tables so I don't miss them. Or care that you added them to the GUI. I don't see what the added benefit is of them.

If the game simulated actual TDC failure then I probably would consider using them more often. But I don't take realism all the way.

And since using the tables properly requires changing speed and/or AOB dial to 0, you might as well set it to the value you know. I guess the "no reason" that I have is: it's just as easy.

@ Johnfb

Re-reading the starting post I realise you were asking for automatic targeting instead of manual targeting (realism option, not the button on F5 page). What I wrote is not really appropriate for your case since I am suggesting to use manual targeting. (I made a boo-boo!) But with auto-targeting the tables are not required either. Any time the target touches the periscope targeting bearing the dials are set appropriately. Basically the answer is:

turn the periscope/Uzo until the gyro angle (3 digit counter under the notepad area) reads 0
Wait until the desired hit-location on the ship passes under the periscope line (no need to lock either)
Fire!

The torpedoes move straight out of the tubes towards periscope bearing 0.

The exact 0 bearing is when the gyro- angle indicator crosses over from 359 to 000.

[Johnfb]

Thanks for all the advice guys. But if I fire at a ship crossing zero degrees the ship will have moved on by the time the torpedo reaches that spot will it not. So I should fire when the ship is 10 degrees from zero to hit it. Is this correct supposing my sub is dead straight and I will be firing at the side of the ship ?

[Pisces]

I'm not sure what you mean with your sub being 'dead straight'. I hope it is straight. Bent subs turn in circles. If you mean straight across the target's path, then yes.

Yes, the torpedo needs time to reach the ship. So before the boom happens the target gets a chance to move also. Depending on it's speed and the torpedo speed this is around 10 to 15 degrees periscope bearing.

[Johnfb]

Originally Posted by Pisces

I'm not sure what you mean with your sub being 'dead straight'. I hope it is straight. Bent subs turn in circles. If you mean straight across the target's path, then yes.

Yes, the torpedo needs time to reach the ship. So before the boom happens the target gets a chance to move also. Depending on it's speed and the torpedo speed this is around 10 to 15 degrees periscope bearing.

Yes I should have said across the targets path.
Thanks for all your time helping me out.
Cheers

[misha1967]

Originally Posted by Johnfb

Thanks for all the advice guys. But if I fire at a ship crossing zero degrees the ship will have moved on by the time the torpedo reaches that spot will it not. So I should fire when the ship is 10 degrees from zero to hit it. Is this correct supposing my sub is dead straight and I will be firing at the side of the ship ?

Not to jump in out of order here, but you really don't need to worry about lead if you're using the "right angle to target course" method, as I like to call it. Which, by the way, is my preferred method of attack whenever I can get away with it. Requires the target to be unaware of your presence and thus predictable, which is the one limitation of the method.

The only thing you really need to worry about is getting the target's speed and course correct.

Once you have those, you place yourself in a perpendicular (90 degrees) line to the target course. If, for instance, your target is traveling on a 90 degrees true course from left to right, you need to point your boat at a true heading of 0 degrees. (90-90=0). Trig is really your friend in a sub

Then you "unlock" the TDC, point your scope at a bearing of 0 degrees (if you're attempting a front shot, 180 if you're firing the rear tube(s)), tell the TDC that the AOB is 90 (port or starboard depending on what direction the target is traveling in relative to you) and enter the target's speed. Then you lock the TDC data in. What you've told the TDC is what the target's AOB (and therefore course) is going to be when it passes right in front of you and, if you're at right angles to that course, that will be 90 degrees. You've also told it that the target will be traveling, at that point in the future, at a speed of x knots.

What the TDC will then do is to calculate the gyro angle (or, more simply, angle compared to the heading of your boat) the torpedo will have to travel to hit such a target. And this is where the true beauty of this method of attack comes in: When you turn your scope until the gyro angle is 0, meaning the torpedo will be set to travel straight ahead, the TDC will be set so that a target traveling across your crosshairs will be hit in the exact location that your vertical middle line of the crosshairs is once it reaches a point directly in front of your boat.

You don't have to lead or lag the target with your scope, as long as it is on the heading where the gyro reads 0 AND you got your course and speed calculations right. In a perfect world where you nailed both, all you have to do is to fire the torp when the vertical middle line is over wherever you want to hit the target. And here's the bonus: Distance of the target doesn't matter! Because the TDC already compensated for that with this method. You can empty your entire load of eels this way as the targets lumber across your sights. As long as the gyro reads 0 for your periscope bearing.

Of course, humans being human, as I've learned from bitter personal experience , no speed and course fixes are ever perfect, so I personally prefer to aim not too far off the middle.

And again: This method only works for that great shot where you have the luxury of just waiting for the target to come to you at right angles to your boat's heading. For any snap decisions at oblique angles, you'll have to dig out your other tools too.

[makman94]

Originally Posted by Pisces

Ok, good to hear there is no problem between us.

The word "reason" is probably not the right word I could use. I admit. Better would have been "those tables are not required", or "not necessary". I'm not sure what you mean with "damped" though. I do not need those tables so I don't miss them. Or care that you added them to the GUI. I don't see what the added benefit is of them.

i don't know if you are talking seriously or you are joking now but i don't see what is changing at the meaning of your words by replacing with the word ''not required" or "not necessary".

the tables that you are calling ,now, as ''not neseccery'' are indeed not necessery for your playing style . but MaGui is not designed for one type of player and some like to attack with one method of TDC (like you) but others like to attack with a different way . both players will feel 'comfort' in MaGui and it is very normal... items that are used from the one type of players to be useless and totally unneseccery for the other type of players.so,it is normal for you not to care about the table's existance but are not there for your type of playing.

one example to get it more clearly :
it is exactly the same if someone ask how to find the speed of target .there are many methods (other are usual ..other not so usual).lets suppose now that you like the A method (without using the u-jagd stopwatch).
what will you do ?
will you reply to him ,describing the A method that you are using and ,at the end , you will tell him : ''eh, there are also some people who are getting the speed by a stopwatch with some speedlines,the u-jagd,but there really no reason(or ...not necessery if you like) to'' ? would you ever do that too and for what reason?

And since using the tables properly requires changing speed and/or AOB dial to 0, you might as well set it to the value you know.

thats also no correct Pisces. no speed or aob dial is required to be setted to 0.

.... I guess the "no reason" that I have is: it's just as easy.

attacking with tables is not more easy(there are no 'magical' attacking methods),it is one more different way to attack and either you like it and you use it or you don't like it and you...don't use it ! you have the choice in your hand .

thats why i am telling you again : tables are useless according to your playing style but are not useless for all users.

ps:tables were builted in game after a subsimer's request that i respect very much and ,even if nobody are using them , are not discarding any other procedure so,in your case, you could just ...ignore them

ps2: @Johnfb : sorry Johnfb for posting all these to your thread , it is my last message here and i will continue to pms if necessery

[misha1967]

Originally Posted by makman94

thats why i am telling you again : tables are useless according to your playing style but are not useless for all users.

ps:tables were builted in game after a subsimer's request that i respect very much and ,even if nobody are using them , are not discarding any other procedure so,in your case, you could just ...ignore them

ps2: @Johnfb : sorry Johnfb for posting all these to your thread , it is my last message here and i will continue to pms if necessery

Not to butt in, and recognizing that I don't know what Pisces exactly meant, how could I?, I think he was trying to say that using the 90 degrees on target course, waiting method, you don't really need all that much, not disparaging the inclusion of the tools.

On the other hand, personally, I absolutely depend on the "distance traveled in x minutes to target speed" chart to find out what my target's speed is and I DO need that information to fire like this. There are other ways of getting that number, but that chart is by far the easiest way to get it for me and I'm grateful to have it. I could get the crew to estimate it for me but, as the years have gone by, I've found that I'm better at it getting good fixes than they are, so the chart is a Godsend to me.

Anyway, I'm grateful for all of the numerous historical tools that you modders have included to this great game and, as you said, if you don't need it you don't have to use it. And I think that Pisces feels the same way, he just wanted to simplify it a bit for Johnfb so he could focus on the two critical data points that you HAVE to have for this firing solution: Course and speed. How anybody goes about getting those is up to them and, if it hadn't been for you modders, we wouldn't have all of the great choices that we do have.

[Hitman]

@Makman and Pisces,

don't get touchy guys, I have readed all your posts and there seems to be some misunderstanding. Pisces is well known for his good ability with maths and he obviously will not need or even consider necessary much of the stuff included in the GUIS created by many people, so it's obvious that how he words his comments about them will make some impact on the creators of them. He has already noted that and clarified, and what he first worte certainly looked also to me a bit "despective", depending on how you read it. I'm sure that wasn't his intention, however, so I'm happy it is clarified, but it could be good to have some PM exchange betwene you to further work out a better understanding.

Thxs

[gi_dan2987]

There are many ways to skin the cat when it comes to gathering data for a good torpedo solution. I typically use a series of range and bearing readings to get course and speed, then from that you will always have AOB. When ready to fire, obtain the range, adjust the AOB to match the course, and fire. I prefer pinging when engaging convoys because it's much faster than shuffling through an ID manual.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by Hitman

@Makman and Pisces,

don't get touchy guys, I have readed all your posts and there seems to be some misunderstanding. Pisces is well known for his good ability with maths and he obviously will not need or even consider necessary much of the stuff included in the GUIS created by many people, so it's obvious that how he words his comments about them will make some impact on the creators of them. He has already noted that and clarified, and what he first worte certainly looked also to me a bit "despective", depending on how you read it. I'm sure that wasn't his intention, however, so I'm happy it is clarified, but it could be good to have some PM exchange betwene you to further work out a better understanding.

Thxs

I definitely do not mean to disrespect Makman94 or any other moder that provides additional tools to the game. I just meant to convey that, technically speaking, the (stock) game provides the means to get the torpedo on target with the TDC, assuming the right values are entered. It is not lacking, therefore not needing additional tools/tables for torpedo lead. You just have to know how. (hence I provided the steps) But if indeed the player has a play-style where he insists to ignore the lead-calculation and torpedo-steering of the TDC built in (or just doesn't know how to use it),... well, then that's ok too.

Wanting to hold on to certain play-style can be reason enough to do it, I suppose. I have to admit I am just as much a creature of habit, and get annoyed if someone wants me to change it. Therefore I changed my words into "not necessary", "not required". That doesn't mean you are forced to do it the way as intended (by Ubisoft), or doing it wrong, or are less of a person/stupid if you are using somebody's tools. Just that you can get torpedoes properly aimed on target without extras.

I have offered Makman94 to continue via PM but he declined. Yet still he confronted me with more questions. So I'll leave it at that. I have no problem or ill feelings towards him.

[makman94]

Originally Posted by Pisces

I definitely do not mean to disrespect Makman94 or any other moder that provides additional tools to the game. I just meant to convey that, technically speaking, the (stock) game provides the means to get the torpedo on target with the TDC, assuming the right values are entered. It is not lacking, therefore not needing additional tools/tables for torpedo lead. You just have to know how. (hence I provided the steps)

but you are doing it again!(the disrespect)
the (stock) game provides all the tools so ,also, is not necessery the stopwatch with speedlines ,the attack disc(front and back side),the 3-bearing tool ,the nomograph...etc...almost all that moders added all these years so why is it only with the tables the matter ? ...just another question for...flying around !
i can't repeat the same things again and again pisces without taking a serious answer .the fact that you are still allowed to continue posting more insults to me without answering to my messages is somehow an answer too.

But if indeed the player has a play-style where he insists to ignore the lead-calculation and torpedo-steering of the TDC built in (or just doesn't know how to use it),... well, then that's ok too.

so , now you are saying that i don't know how to use the TDC (...great conclusion btw...)
...you 'discovered' that periscope is showing the shooting bearing when TDC is on auto mode and you are acting like you discovered the....america ! seriously now , i would have greater expectations for you than only this.

... I have to admit I am just as much a creature of habit, and get annoyed if someone wants me to change it. ...

so, still you have understand that i want you to use the tables method! and you get annoyed too !
no pisces,it can't be so difficult to understant what i am telling you to my messages.you are just pretending that you don't understand becuase if you don't you will have to post : ''i am sorry makman ,you are absolutely right and i feel terrible for insulting you'' .

...Just that you can get torpedoes properly aimed on target without extras.

are not 'extras' , are alternative method ! (either the one or either the other...no extras). but keep pretending...

I have offered Makman94 to continue via PM but he declined. Yet still he confronted me with more questions. So I'll leave it at that. I have no problem or ill feelings towards him.

i gave you the 'opportunity' to 'clean' the mess that you started publicly but you just throw it away.it is all your actions
i was expecting a pm from you long time ago but it never came ....remember ?so no sir...i don't want any pms from you

btw pisces: fair judging demands deep knowledge! keep that in mind

[Hitman]

May I please ask both gentlemen to use PMs and if that doesn't work, to use the nice feature in the forum software to add the other to the "ignore" list? That way you won't ever again see a post by the other, and if all else fails, this is a good way to have a happy browsing here.

Thanks

Thread closed

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by misha1967

Not to butt in, and recognizing that I don't know what Pisces exactly meant, how could I?, I think he was trying to say that using the 90 degrees on target course, waiting method, you don't really need all that much, not disparaging the inclusion of the tools.

On the other hand, personally, I absolutely depend on the "distance traveled in x minutes to target speed" chart to find out what my target's speed is and I DO need that information to fire like this. There are other ways of getting that number, but that chart is by far the easiest way to get it for me and I'm grateful to have it. I could get the crew to estimate it for me but, as the years have gone by, I've found that I'm better at it getting good fixes than they are, so the chart is a Godsend to me.

Anyway, I'm grateful for all of the numerous historical tools that you modders have included to this great game and, as you said, if you don't need it you don't have to use it. And I think that Pisces feels the same way, he just wanted to simplify it a bit for Johnfb so he could focus on the two critical data points that you HAVE to have for this firing solution: Course and speed. How anybody goes about getting those is up to them and, if it hadn't been for you modders, we wouldn't have all of the great choices that we do have.

Actually, you are quite on the mark. (Pun intended ) Thanks for clarifying my position.