We got scared

Takeda Shingen · 01-27-12, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammi79

Takeda,

Einstein was misled into believing that scientists who worked for the Nazis were using his formula to build a bomb. At that time they were already on the first rung of the ladder, having recorded fissions in uranium. Einstein never contributed anything more to the project than his formula, which was inevitable anyway. The project went on under Max Groves and Robert Oppenheimer and they eventually found a way to achieve the supercritical chain reaction required.

So, when it comes down to it, Einstein also got scared. More or less in line with my remarks, yes?

Platapus · 01-27-12, 07:25 PM

But fear is such a powerful tool to control people. Does anyone really think those in power would give up such an effective tool?

Blood_splat · 01-27-12, 07:38 PM

Oberon · 01-27-12, 09:21 PM

Right...now that I'm not getting ready to head out the door to work I can actually give a slightly longer viewpoint on this.

You were warned

I am a man of science, I believe that humanity descended from apes which in turn spawned from a primeval swamp, which in turn was formed by a random meteor impact on a planet which was already teeming with bacterial life from other random meteor impacts.
I believe that we are as much a part of the universe as everything around us, the plants, the animals, the sky, the earth, it is all connected.
I believe that we are little different to the animals that surround us, when it all boils down to it, we act in similar ways, we fight over territory, we have strong mating instincts (some stronger than others

), we seek the best we can in a mate and we all seek to protect our young so that our species can continue. We may put a fancy society around it, but there are so many similarities that it's hard for me to deny it.

I am a man of belief, I believe that there is a spiritual side to mankind which is formed more of energy than it is of any big man in a beard. I believe that this Big Bang was caused by the Big Crunch of a previous universe...but what started the first universe?

Does this make me scared? Sometimes, yes, I am scared...I look out of the window and I see wars that are not caused by religion, religion is just a thin icing on top of a cake composed of standard human emotion. Greed, is a strong component of our daily lives, bigger is better, everyone wants a pay rise, everyone wants that oil field, everyone wants a successful market, even at the expense of someone elses market, someone elses job, someone elses life. Religions put humanities flaws down to an evil entity, some call him Satan, some Lucifer, some Velnias, but it is in essence a simple display of what is in every single one of us. There's a quote from Star Trek Deep Space Nine that I always come back to when I think of humanity, and it is just so true, and it's from a very powerful episode, 'The Siege of AR-558':

Quark: "Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people – as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..."

That Satan, that evil is just a simple part of the complex machine of emotions which make up a human being. Do other animals have that same machine? Some cat owners would certainly attest to the darker side of feline emotions, however since we still have trouble bridging the gap between our form of language and theirs it is something that we can only guess at.

Science has inflicted some terrible pain upon our animal brethren, and it still does in laboratories around the world. Somewhere up in orbit, or more likely in small microns scattered across the planet is a dog which was sacrificed for science...she had no say in the matter, and she died a lonely, horrible death, for science. So Science isn't quite the magical cure for all the evils of mankind, if anything it gives us more evil ways to kill each other and to make each others lives a misery. Yesterday it was the rack, today it's water-boarding, tomorrow perhaps it will be false memories implanted directly into the brain.
Religion and science are the ying and yang of mankind. Where did morality come from? Our societies grew up from the Medieval era of god-fearing citizens (although some haven't quite grown up yet...) which instilled in them a strict code of right and wrong which was punished harshly, and as we emerged from under the umbrella of that fear, what has happened? The London riots, fueled by nothing more than greed and a disregard for the morality of the event. If those youths knew that they would be punished by having their hands removed, would they have still done it? Not that I'm advocating such treatment, but merely highlighting the fact that science needs religion to curb its excesses as much as religion needs science to keep it from growing beyond its place in society. Right now, and throughout history, neither have managed to keep that perfect balance, and we have swung from one extreme to the other.

Are all scientists automatically atheists? An interesting question to ponder. Does religion have a place in science? I think it does, and science has a place in religion. Just because the Bible is just a book it does not mean that the underlying principles of the things that Jesus supposedly taught are null and void. Even the bible states that Politics and Religion do not mix, it is humanity which has merged the two into a horrible mess.

We are a flawed species, nothing is perfect, and religion and indeed science, are just two parts of this flawed gem that is humanity.

Maybe one day there will be a conscious change in society towards a more peaceful coexistence...but it will take a collosal event to have something like that happen on a global scale. Until then we just have to make the best of what we can, but at the end of the day, we have to try to live in peace with each other on this ball of dirt and water the best we can in order to face the challenges that await us in this century...and boy do we have some doozies.

Sammi79 · 01-27-12, 10:26 PM

Takeda,

First let me assure you of my personal respect for you, as a balanced and reasonable moderator here, I mean no offense.

Yes I think Einstein was scared. After all he was human, with all the weakness that entails. Someone who was not scared under those circumstances would be a fool at the very least, or somehow above said weakness, no?

The problem I have with your first post is this; the study of science has only led to more death and misery (your words) Now please correct me if I have mistaken your meaning, but this seems to me to be taking the effect, and linking causality to the tool, rather than the one who wields it. To analogize with the 2001 scene, it is like blaming the bone being grasped by the ape, for the murder that is done later with it. To elaborate, the ape has an agenda, to compete for resource, to survive. This is what quickly leads him to the realization that the bone tool can aid him in his endeavor. I assert that Einstein had no comparable agenda in 1905 (I think?) when he first penned his famous equation, and realized the incredible amount of energy that is locked away in all matter. He cannot be held responsible for the inferior agendas of others who took one of his greatest works and created an abhorrent weapon, and nor can his curiosity and studies that brought him to his discovery. The climate of fear that compelled him to lend his work to the military was certainly not of his making after all, he was acutely aware of the vast energies that might now threaten the allies. I firmly disagree with your notion that all science is rooted in conflict, we are not measuring the speed of neutrinos with the aim to build a weapon, and we are not searching for a force carrying gravity particle to enable us take resource from our enemies. We are uncovering reality layer by layer, because we are curious.

I do not intend to preach to you about the benefits of science, of which you are doubtless aware as you read this reply on your screen, though in your statement you use the word 'only' which I assume is simply a slightly careless use of words, as you later state 'I have no issue with the role that religion has played in mankind's misery' now I am sure this is not quite your meaning, but I do sir. Very much so and on a personal level. But my intent is not to preach to you of the harm that has been done, is still being done in the name of 'religion' either, I am happy to disagree. I lay none of this at your feet, like I said, honestly, you have my respect. As you say, it is wrong to place all humanities faults on religion, but you are equally wrong to place them on the study of science.

Regards, Sam.

Takeda Shingen · 01-27-12, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammi79

Takeda,

First let me assure you of my personal respect for you, as a balanced and reasonable moderator here, I mean no offense.

Yes I think Einstein was scared. After all he was human, with all the weakness that entails. Someone who was not scared under those circumstances would be a fool at the very least, or somehow above said weakness, no?

The problem I have with your first post is this; the study of science has only led to more death and misery (your words) Now please correct me if I have mistaken your meaning, but this seems to me to be taking the effect, and linking causality to the tool, rather than the one who wields it. To analogize with the 2001 scene, it is like blaming the bone being grasped by the ape, for the murder that is done later with it. To elaborate, the ape has an agenda, to compete for resource, to survive. This is what quickly leads him to the realization that the bone tool can aid him in his endeavor. I assert that Einstein had no comparable agenda in 1905 (I think?) when he first penned his famous equation, and realized the incredible amount of energy that is locked away in all matter. He cannot be held responsible for the inferior agendas of others who took one of his greatest works and created an abhorrent weapon, and nor can his curiosity and studies that brought him to his discovery. The climate of fear that compelled him to lend his work to the military was certainly not of his making after all, he was acutely aware of the vast energies that might now threaten the allies. I firmly disagree with your notion that all science is rooted in conflict, we are not measuring the speed of neutrinos with the aim to build a weapon, and we are not searching for a force carrying gravity particle to enable us take resource from our enemies. We are uncovering reality layer by layer, because we are curious.

I do not intend to preach to you about the benefits of science, of which you are doubtless aware as you read this reply on your screen, though in your statement you use the word 'only' which I assume is simply a slightly careless use of words, as you later state 'I have no issue with the role that religion has played in mankind's misery' now I am sure this is not quite your meaning, but I do sir. Very much so and on a personal level. But my intent is not to preach to you of the harm that has been done, is still being done in the name of 'religion' either, I am happy to disagree. I lay none of this at your feet, like I said, honestly, you have my respect. As you say, it is wrong to place all humanities faults on religion, but you are equally wrong to place them on the study of science.

Regards, Sam.

First, please don't be put off by the moderator avatar. We're just having a conversation here.

I agree that my statement was sweeping. However, was this any less so than was done in by the author of the video? I simply substituted 'science' for 'religion'.

What we are really talking about is the purity of both natural law and spirituality and contrasting them with man's constructs of science and religion. Take, for example, metallurgy. The creation of alloys itself is not evil, and the application of these natural laws has no doubt benefitted manking. However, it should be noted that nearly all of these developments came as a result of powerful men seeking to create better weapoons. As such, science becomes a front for the lust for power; the human drive for supremacy at the expense of the other. It is an attempt to save face by doing something in the 'name of science' rather than doing something to enforce or preserve one's own power.

Man behaves identically in matters of religion. While the principles in sprituality, and even in religious theology are not evil, man uses his religion as a mask for his drive for supremacy. The Crusades were hailed as a great religious cause, but the true reason was blatently political. The authorities of the Church were looking to expand their powers and needed a more stable Europe in order to do so. However, convincing a continent of bloodthirsty rulers and despotic local warlords to put their swords down was an impossibility. The Muslims may have very well been on the other side of the world by 11th Century standards, but they were an enemy against which this rogue's gallery could unite against. And so, it is far more convenient to claim the matter as religious than telling people the real reason. Like science it becomes the foil for the powerful and as in science, religion becomes a victim of the real problem--humanity and it's nature.

TLAM Strike · 01-28-12, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

However, it should be noted that nearly all of these developments came as a result of powerful men seeking to create better weapoons.

Hermann Oberth wanted the rocket to be used for space exploration, not for war.

The Wright Brothers expected their invention to allow nations to observe each other with impunity making war imposable.

Simon Lake wanted to use his invention for exploring the sea floor and tap its resources.

Joseph Glidden's invention was for cattle ranchers, not concentration camps and trenches.

Fritz Haber originally intended his chemical process to be used to make fertilizer and insecticide.

Benjamin Holt's invention was for agricultural tractors not tanks.

Oberon · 01-28-12, 12:59 AM

He did say nearly...

Takeda Shingen · 01-28-12, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Hermann Oberth wanted the rocket to be used for space exploration, not for war.

The Wright Brothers expected their invention to allow nations to observe each other with impunity making war imposable.

Simon Lake wanted to use his invention for exploring the sea floor and tap its resources.

Joseph Glidden's invention was for cattle ranchers, not concentration camps and trenches.

Fritz Haber originally intended his chemical process to be used to make fertilizer and insecticide.

Benjamin Holt's invention was for agricultural tractors not tanks.

And yet, each of those inventions have been weaponized and used to create untold volumes of misery. Each of these has been used in the exploitation of others. It is identical to the 'weaponization' of religion. In that sense both science and religion become tools for the powerful. And once again it comes down to the fact that the problem is humanity itself. After all Jesus, intended that his words be used as a vehicle for peace.

antikristuseke · 01-28-12, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Hermann Oberth wanted the rocket to be used for space exploration, not for war.

The Wright Brothers expected their invention to allow nations to observe each other with impunity making war imposable.

Simon Lake wanted to use his invention for exploring the sea floor and tap its resources.

Joseph Glidden's invention was for cattle ranchers, not concentration camps and trenches.

Fritz Haber originally intended his chemical process to be used to make fertilizer and insecticide.

Benjamin Holt's invention was for agricultural tractors not tanks.

Te road to hell is paved with good intentions

MH · 01-28-12, 10:01 AM

The good old times

So its all about greed domination?
No curiosity or ways to understand universe or better and more convenient life.
You really like to depress yourselfs.
Not saying that greed and war is not the factor that sometimes speeds up the process for good and the bad.

I should say that no advancement in modern physics have nothing to do with war or greed (maybe some fame)therefore Einstein well deserves his place in history of enlightened.
The A bomb is a by product but never was the objective.

Sammi79 · 01-28-12, 11:58 AM

Takeda,

I did not express my respect because you are a moderator, it is merely a thin gauge of your character, I have been around for a while (before my join date) and followed many threads, and to me you seem reasonable and have fairly balanced views. If I thought otherwise, I would be just as quick to say so, moderator or no. (though I do think that to be a moderator here @SubSim says only good things about ones character

) Your agreement with the general sweep of your first statement reinforces my opinion on this. I just wanted to assure you I am not attacking you or your beliefs in any way. This world takes all sorts, and it would be mighty boring otherwise.

It seemed to me that you felt the author of the video was attacking religion or religious beliefs, and you responded with a reproach. I assert he was not, he lays all the fault with fear, like the title, which I agree is yet another generalizing over-simplification. My interpretation of his message is different, however. What the author is saying is that religion has its root in fear of the unknown. That the forces governing life and death and unexplainable natural phenomena seemed to the newly evolved mind to have a will of their own, and power beyond understanding. Science or the study of natural reality, has its root in curiosity, and the overcoming of fear.

The reason that in the modern age, they appear to be in conflict is this; science takes piece by piece the unknown and uncovers the reality of it. In doing so it eliminates the fear of the unknown, by making it known. As more and more reality is uncovered by scientific study, the scriptures and doctrines are being forced to evolve (though they resist strongly and have not done so nearly enough IMHO) to exclude the findings of science. Many Christians accept that the creation myth in genesis is false in view of our newly acquired knowledge of evolution, for example. The intent of science has never been to compete with religion, it just so happens the side effect of sceptical analysis is - the incremental discreditation of religions that fail or refuse to evolve alongside it.

At the very least, science can be used to fight against its own abuse. What do the scriptures say about global warming, for instance? Anyway for me it is irrelevant, in that it is painfully clear that greed is our nemesis, and is also as Oberon points out is as fundamental to our nature as are fear and curiosity. But fear doesn't help, and science is helping to fix that.

Regards, Sam

kiwi_2005 · 01-30-12, 07:38 PM

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. Ecclesiastes 3:8

Do not be afraid of those (man) who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (spirit). Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body.
Matthew 10:28

Read the book of Ecclesiastes you pagans then you wont be scared anymore...

Plus its one of my favorite books in the bible different from all the others & tells it like it is.

Anyways I'm off to play my pagan RPG's.

Takeda Shingen · 01-30-12, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. Ecclesiastes 3:8

Do not be afraid of those (man) who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (spirit). Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body.
Matthew 10:28

Read the book of Ecclesiastes you pagans then you wont be scared anymore...

Plus its one of my favorite books in the bible different from all the others & tells it like it is.

Anyways I'm off to play my pagan RPG's.

Fus Roh Dah, baby. Fus Roh Dah.

TLAM Strike · 01-30-12, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

Do not be afraid of those (man) who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (spirit). Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body.
Matthew 10:28

Sooo.... a Time Lord? They seem to have had that capability...

The Bible is starting to make sense...

01-27-12, 07:25 PM	#2
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,388 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	But fear is such a powerful tool to control people. Does anyone really think those in power would give up such an effective tool? __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

01-27-12, 10:26 PM	#5
Sammi79 XO Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Penzance Posts: 428 Downloads: 272 Uploads: 0	Takeda, First let me assure you of my personal respect for you, as a balanced and reasonable moderator here, I mean no offense. Yes I think Einstein was scared. After all he was human, with all the weakness that entails. Someone who was not scared under those circumstances would be a fool at the very least, or somehow above said weakness, no? The problem I have with your first post is this; the study of science has only led to more death and misery (your words) Now please correct me if I have mistaken your meaning, but this seems to me to be taking the effect, and linking causality to the tool, rather than the one who wields it. To analogize with the 2001 scene, it is like blaming the bone being grasped by the ape, for the murder that is done later with it. To elaborate, the ape has an agenda, to compete for resource, to survive. This is what quickly leads him to the realization that the bone tool can aid him in his endeavor. I assert that Einstein had no comparable agenda in 1905 (I think?) when he first penned his famous equation, and realized the incredible amount of energy that is locked away in all matter. He cannot be held responsible for the inferior agendas of others who took one of his greatest works and created an abhorrent weapon, and nor can his curiosity and studies that brought him to his discovery. The climate of fear that compelled him to lend his work to the military was certainly not of his making after all, he was acutely aware of the vast energies that might now threaten the allies. I firmly disagree with your notion that all science is rooted in conflict, we are not measuring the speed of neutrinos with the aim to build a weapon, and we are not searching for a force carrying gravity particle to enable us take resource from our enemies. We are uncovering reality layer by layer, because we are curious. I do not intend to preach to you about the benefits of science, of which you are doubtless aware as you read this reply on your screen, though in your statement you use the word 'only' which I assume is simply a slightly careless use of words, as you later state 'I have no issue with the role that religion has played in mankind's misery' now I am sure this is not quite your meaning, but I do sir. Very much so and on a personal level. But my intent is not to preach to you of the harm that has been done, is still being done in the name of 'religion' either, I am happy to disagree. I lay none of this at your feet, like I said, honestly, you have my respect. As you say, it is wrong to place all humanities faults on religion, but you are equally wrong to place them on the study of science. Regards, Sam. __________________ Gadewais fy beic nghadwyno i'r rhai a rheiliau, pan wnes i ddychwelyd, yno mae'n roedd... Wedi mynd.

01-28-12, 11:58 AM	#12
Sammi79 XO Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Penzance Posts: 428 Downloads: 272 Uploads: 0	Takeda, I did not express my respect because you are a moderator, it is merely a thin gauge of your character, I have been around for a while (before my join date) and followed many threads, and to me you seem reasonable and have fairly balanced views. If I thought otherwise, I would be just as quick to say so, moderator or no. (though I do think that to be a moderator here @SubSim says only good things about ones character ) Your agreement with the general sweep of your first statement reinforces my opinion on this. I just wanted to assure you I am not attacking you or your beliefs in any way. This world takes all sorts, and it would be mighty boring otherwise. It seemed to me that you felt the author of the video was attacking religion or religious beliefs, and you responded with a reproach. I assert he was not, he lays all the fault with fear, like the title, which I agree is yet another generalizing over-simplification. My interpretation of his message is different, however. What the author is saying is that religion has its root in fear of the unknown. That the forces governing life and death and unexplainable natural phenomena seemed to the newly evolved mind to have a will of their own, and power beyond understanding. Science or the study of natural reality, has its root in curiosity, and the overcoming of fear. The reason that in the modern age, they appear to be in conflict is this; science takes piece by piece the unknown and uncovers the reality of it. In doing so it eliminates the fear of the unknown, by making it known. As more and more reality is uncovered by scientific study, the scriptures and doctrines are being forced to evolve (though they resist strongly and have not done so nearly enough IMHO) to exclude the findings of science. Many Christians accept that the creation myth in genesis is false in view of our newly acquired knowledge of evolution, for example. The intent of science has never been to compete with religion, it just so happens the side effect of sceptical analysis is - the incremental discreditation of religions that fail or refuse to evolve alongside it. At the very least, science can be used to fight against its own abuse. What do the scriptures say about global warming, for instance? Anyway for me it is irrelevant, in that it is painfully clear that greed is our nemesis, and is also as Oberon points out is as fundamental to our nature as are fear and curiosity. But fear doesn't help, and science is helping to fix that. Regards, Sam __________________ Gadewais fy beic nghadwyno i'r rhai a rheiliau, pan wnes i ddychwelyd, yno mae'n roedd... Wedi mynd.

01-30-12, 07:38 PM	#13
kiwi_2005 Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2004 Location: Aeoteroa Posts: 7,382 Downloads: 223 Uploads: 1	A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. Ecclesiastes 3:8 Do not be afraid of those (man) who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (spirit). Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body. Matthew 10:28 Read the book of Ecclesiastes you pagans then you wont be scared anymore... Plus its one of my favorite books in the bible different from all the others & tells it like it is. Anyways I'm off to play my pagan RPG's. __________________ RIP kiwi_2005 Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others.

01-27-12, 07:38 PM	#3
Blood_splat Samurai Navy Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Beneath the waves Posts: 568 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0

01-27-12, 09:21 PM	#4
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Right...now that I'm not getting ready to head out the door to work I can actually give a slightly longer viewpoint on this. You were warned I am a man of science, I believe that humanity descended from apes which in turn spawned from a primeval swamp, which in turn was formed by a random meteor impact on a planet which was already teeming with bacterial life from other random meteor impacts. I believe that we are as much a part of the universe as everything around us, the plants, the animals, the sky, the earth, it is all connected. I believe that we are little different to the animals that surround us, when it all boils down to it, we act in similar ways, we fight over territory, we have strong mating instincts (some stronger than others ), we seek the best we can in a mate and we all seek to protect our young so that our species can continue. We may put a fancy society around it, but there are so many similarities that it's hard for me to deny it. I am a man of belief, I believe that there is a spiritual side to mankind which is formed more of energy than it is of any big man in a beard. I believe that this Big Bang was caused by the Big Crunch of a previous universe...but what started the first universe? Does this make me scared? Sometimes, yes, I am scared...I look out of the window and I see wars that are not caused by religion, religion is just a thin icing on top of a cake composed of standard human emotion. Greed, is a strong component of our daily lives, bigger is better, everyone wants a pay rise, everyone wants that oil field, everyone wants a successful market, even at the expense of someone elses market, someone elses job, someone elses life. Religions put humanities flaws down to an evil entity, some call him Satan, some Lucifer, some Velnias, but it is in essence a simple display of what is in every single one of us. There's a quote from Star Trek Deep Space Nine that I always come back to when I think of humanity, and it is just so true, and it's from a very powerful episode, 'The Siege of AR-558': Quark: "Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people – as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..." That Satan, that evil is just a simple part of the complex machine of emotions which make up a human being. Do other animals have that same machine? Some cat owners would certainly attest to the darker side of feline emotions, however since we still have trouble bridging the gap between our form of language and theirs it is something that we can only guess at. Science has inflicted some terrible pain upon our animal brethren, and it still does in laboratories around the world. Somewhere up in orbit, or more likely in small microns scattered across the planet is a dog which was sacrificed for science...she had no say in the matter, and she died a lonely, horrible death, for science. So Science isn't quite the magical cure for all the evils of mankind, if anything it gives us more evil ways to kill each other and to make each others lives a misery. Yesterday it was the rack, today it's water-boarding, tomorrow perhaps it will be false memories implanted directly into the brain. Religion and science are the ying and yang of mankind. Where did morality come from? Our societies grew up from the Medieval era of god-fearing citizens (although some haven't quite grown up yet...) which instilled in them a strict code of right and wrong which was punished harshly, and as we emerged from under the umbrella of that fear, what has happened? The London riots, fueled by nothing more than greed and a disregard for the morality of the event. If those youths knew that they would be punished by having their hands removed, would they have still done it? Not that I'm advocating such treatment, but merely highlighting the fact that science needs religion to curb its excesses as much as religion needs science to keep it from growing beyond its place in society. Right now, and throughout history, neither have managed to keep that perfect balance, and we have swung from one extreme to the other. Are all scientists automatically atheists? An interesting question to ponder. Does religion have a place in science? I think it does, and science has a place in religion. Just because the Bible is just a book it does not mean that the underlying principles of the things that Jesus supposedly taught are null and void. Even the bible states that Politics and Religion do not mix, it is humanity which has merged the two into a horrible mess. We are a flawed species, nothing is perfect, and religion and indeed science, are just two parts of this flawed gem that is humanity. Maybe one day there will be a conscious change in society towards a more peaceful coexistence...but it will take a collosal event to have something like that happen on a global scale. Until then we just have to make the best of what we can, but at the end of the day, we have to try to live in peace with each other on this ball of dirt and water the best we can in order to face the challenges that await us in this century...and boy do we have some doozies.

01-28-12, 12:59 AM	#8
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	He did say nearly...

01-28-12, 10:01 AM	#11
MH Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 3,184 Downloads: 248 Uploads: 0	The good old times So its all about greed domination? No curiosity or ways to understand universe or better and more convenient life. You really like to depress yourselfs. Not saying that greed and war is not the factor that sometimes speeds up the process for good and the bad. I should say that no advancement in modern physics have nothing to do with war or greed (maybe some fame)therefore Einstein well deserves his place in history of enlightened. The A bomb is a by product but never was the objective.