Speak French or you are not our coach! - Page 2

vienna · 12-20-11, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Hey, chill Bilge_Rat and imagine how Vienna would scream if his LA Dodger's hired a manager who spoke no "American" at all.

Must make a correction of fact: Although I live in Los Angeles, I was born and raised in San Francisco and I am a lifelong Giants fan. As far as the Dodgers are concerned, the only time I watch or listen to their games, it is to support the opposing team...

If you ever heard their former manager, Tommy Lasorda, speak, you could argue the Dodgers once had a manager who could not speak "American"...

12-20-11, 05:05 PM

Heh, heh. I'm not entirely sure that Brooklynese is an English dialect either but then I need my British born wife to translate Dr. Who episodes for me...

Language is a sensitive issue in Canada, we have been trying since 1757 to deal with the duality of this country with mixed success. This is probably why this whole Habs coach thing is big in Quebec, a non-issue in The Rest of Canada (TROC) and perplexing to the international membership here.

French Canadians do not relate to France hardly at all and consider themselves culturally unique. Up until the late 1950's the social order in Quebec resembled, more than anything else, that of pre-revolutionary France, with the clergy and landowners dominating the rural areas and Anglophone business interests ruling in the industrialized cities. That has changed with the pendulum swinging the other way but the mix of English, Hockey and les Canadien's is seen as potentially exploitable for sovereignists. TROC is seeing nothing new and so response has been mute and it's really none of the rest of the world's business who the Habs corporate bosses hire or why.

So taking a poorly worded Yahoonews sound bite and using it to make value judgments on an entire country with neither context or subject knowledge is is bit over the top in my opinion. But it is typical Forum stuff.

Rockstar · 12-20-11, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Note that none of the other Canadians on this forum have weighed in as yet, either for, against or indifferent. I'm indifferent and there is really nothing to see here in either of Canada's official languages.

Edit
I just checked the Canadian Broadcast Corporation and as suspected, this is not even a news item. The CBC is home to that national institution Hockey Night in Canada so one might think that if the story was deemed important to Canadians there might be something about it but nothing as yet. Didn't check the French language Radio Canada but it seems that it's business as usual in the Frozen North...

But thats the typical Canadian reaction to most anything.

1480 · 12-20-11, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

what if the coach of NY yankees only spoke french or spanish, would you still find it as funny?

The issue is much wider than just the head coach, francophones have been steadily pushed out of all important positions in the Canadians' organisation even though the vast majority of fans, supporters, and ticket holders are overwhelmingly french speaking. It is not only a slap in the face but bad business.

Why don't you find out more about an issue before making blanket generalizations? All you are doing is confirming our prejudices about Americans.

Did not make a blanket generalization. I just find it disturbing that a person is disqualified because of language, not because he is incompetent. Even more disturbing, is that the government is chiming in on this issue and appears to be siding with the discrimination. Regardless of what your short-sided view of the topic, it's discrimination.

If you have never heard Ozzie Guillen speak, it's almost impossible to understand him. But, he took the White Sox to a world championship.

Everyone in the world is completely qualified to criticize the US, but when the shoe is on the other foot.....

Penguin · 12-20-11, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I am a french Quebecker and to us the term "grenouille" is as offensive as the term N****R to African-Americans.

That I didn't know and I apologize if I have offended you or other Franco-Canadiens. I have only been to BC and the people there used the term in a funny, teasing way to describe French speakers - same as we do here in Europe. So my intention was to tease but not to insult.

However I do not apologize for finding this "issue" laughable, especially when the guy used to be the co-trainer. Mixing sports and politics is ridiculous and I can't see how the identity of the French-speakers gets destroyed by this event.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

At least we proved we can kick your ass in WW2.

I didn't know that the hockey world cup is called WW2 nowadays...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

^ Hey, chill Bilge_Rat and imagine how Vienna would scream if his LA Dodger's hired a manager who spoke no "American" at all.

Or if Hertha BSC's new head coach spoke only Turkish just for Penguin.

Funny that you mention it, Hertha had a coach from the French part of Switzerland some time ago. The only Turkish coach in the Bundesliga worked for Hamburg though.
Our former national coach, Berti Vogts currently works for the national team of Azerbaijan and he sure can't speak Azerbaijani - and only broken English.
The most popular coach (and one of the most successful too) of my home team, Fortuna Düsseldorf, was of Bosnian origin, he also spoke only little German when he started, got better by the time though. Even the brown fraction in the stadium put the team success before the nationality or language of the coach. They offended black players but never made chants against Ristic. At least that's what I think, as I do not tend to hang out with them, but with buddies in supporter groups who ask those people politely to stop

.

Here is a list of foreign coaches who had worked for German 1st league clubs: http://www.transfermarkt.de/en/1-bun...bewerb_L1.html - many of them barely spoke German - not to mention the Swiss cheesemunchers and the Austrian canyoncrappers who speak an incomprehensible dialect.

A legendary press conference of Bayern München's Italian coach Trappatoni in the 90s where he had an outburst is still legendary and some of his expressions made it into German popular culture.

Bilge_Rat · 12-20-11, 05:29 PM

The issue is more one of respect, many Quebeckers like me are bilingual, open to the world, international. I work mostly in english and have clients all over the world. Montreal is probably the most bilingual city on earth, where you can live exclusively in english or french or both. Quebeckers are not french, in fact, culturally, Quebeckers are probably closer to Americans or even the British than the French.

There are many anglophones who head Quebec institutions, like Michael Sabia, head of the Caisse de Depôt, Quebec's largest government owned financial institution. He was chosen because of his competence and so far seems to be working out.

As I mentioned before, the issue with the Canadian's head coach is more than just his lack of french. For a long time now, the Hab's organization has been pushing out french canadians from key positions. It is certainly not because of lack of competence since french canadians are over-represented among players/staff at all level of the NHL. If the Canadians were winning, it would be different, but they are on their worst slump in years. This is just the straw that broke the camel's back or as we say up here " la goutte qui a fait deborder le vase".

If the new coach manages to turns things around, it will all blow over.

Bilge_Rat · 12-20-11, 05:47 PM

1480, Penguin,

I apologize if I was overly harsh, as I mentioned I had a bad day. I am a tax lawyer by trade and spent part of the day arguing with a Revenue Quebec collections officer that wants to seize my client's assets even though the tax assessment appears to be invalid. These bureaucrats will drive anyone batty!

Merry Christmas all fellow subsimmers!

The real mother of debate is just around the corner, the 2012 presidential election.

12-20-11, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Everyone in the world is completely qualified to criticize the US, but when the shoe is on the other foot.....

It's unworthy to play the victim card, everybody who posts a counter-factual about the United States on these forums gets roundly stomped flat in very short order.

Quote:

If you have never heard Ozzie Guillen speak, it's almost impossible to understand him. But, he took the White Sox to a world championship.

I once had a Regimental Sergeant Major (that would be at least an an E9 for those Americans out there) who officially spoke English, French and German. The only problem was that he was virtually unintelligible in any of them which made for interesting parades and professional development days. One day he came onto my gun platform and proceeded to give me a severe dressing down in no uncertain terms, yelling so as to attract the TSM and gesticulation wildly about at my cam net, ammo shelter and local defence trenches. I stood at attention and dutifully responded with a "Yes Sir!" during every pause in his tirade and managed to look contrite and serious. After he stormed off with the Troop Sergeant Major in tow, my 2 I/C quietly asked what all that had been about and my response was that I had no idea whatsoever. Still don't over 25-years later.

These days that sort of thing would be recorded on a cell phone and go viral on Youtube.

Penguin · 12-20-11, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

1480, Penguin,

I apologize if I was overly harsh, as I mentioned I had a bad day. I am a tax lawyer by trade and spent part of the day arguing with a Revenue Quebec collections officer that wants to seize my client's assets even though the tax assessment appears to be invalid. These bureaucrats will drive anyone batty!

Merry Christmas all fellow subsimmers!

No harm done & apology accepted - hope you also read mine in the previous post

I have a fairly thick skin regarding Nazi-jokes, I know where I stand, so no big deal.
Happy Christmas to you, too! Btw: the state of Germany still owes me 1500 Euro in taxes, so if you need a job here... - remember: we also employ non-native speakers

And thanks for elaborating this issue a little deeper. To quote Monsieur Randomizer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

This is no place to try and resolve cultural ignorance because the ignorant generally revel in their condition.

There is ignorance for ignorance's sake and there is ignorance because of cultural misunderstandings. So: yes, I think this is a fitting place here to resolve this - where else in the interwebs should we fight ignorance if not here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

The real mother of debate is just around the corner, the 2012 presidential election.

*runs away* Can of worms alert!

vienna · 12-20-11, 06:46 PM

There actually is a quasi-French enclave in the U.S. known as the Cajuns. Originally from the northern end of the Mississippi River up near Canada, they Live mainly in the area of the state of Louisiana. They speak a dialect of French mixed with English and Caribbean patois. They also do not consider themselves French and have a unique culture. They are not as many as those French speakers in Quebec, but they are as fiercly loyal to their culture...

12-20-11, 07:00 PM

Actually most Cajuns were Acadians, expelled from the the English colonies of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick (then Acadia) to the French colony of Louisiana when the British feared that the French speaking population as a threat during the Seven-Year's War (aka the French and Indian Wars).

They pretty much ethnically cleansed Nova Scotia and PEI but many French speakers remained in New Brunswick, now Canada's only officially bilingual province. Some French speaking New Brunswickers hold a grudge even today...

Cajun is a corruption of Acadian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acadians

As part of the general peace in 1763 or so France gave up all claims to Quebec which later became the colony of Lower Canada and the English Parliament granted French equal status with English there.

1480 · 12-20-11, 11:34 PM

To both BR, and Random, no harm no foul.

As a hockey fan and player, living in the US, hockey is somewhat a cult following. From what my old man told me, during the 60's the Blackhawks were the only game in town (mild exaggeration). The 70's saw a decline but a resurgence occurred in the 80's, but for all the wrong reasons.

I love to see the original six do well. Wish they played more games against each other. It's seeing something that could ultimately hurt the game and it's something that could have been easily avoided had certain people kept their mouths shut.

Call it self-interest....

And to all, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, cannot wait for the fur to fly in 2012.

12-21-11, 02:30 AM

@ 1480
Cheers and Ditto. Apologies to all if I sounded bombastic.

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays/Bon fete or whatever works for you during this Silly Season.

gimpy117 · 12-21-11, 02:41 AM

Dear Canada,
your friends across the Detroit river are still better.

Sincerely,

Michigan

1480 · 12-21-11, 08:41 AM

12-20-11, 05:29 PM	#21
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,856 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	The issue is more one of respect, many Quebeckers like me are bilingual, open to the world, international. I work mostly in english and have clients all over the world. Montreal is probably the most bilingual city on earth, where you can live exclusively in english or french or both. Quebeckers are not french, in fact, culturally, Quebeckers are probably closer to Americans or even the British than the French. There are many anglophones who head Quebec institutions, like Michael Sabia, head of the Caisse de Depôt, Quebec's largest government owned financial institution. He was chosen because of his competence and so far seems to be working out. As I mentioned before, the issue with the Canadian's head coach is more than just his lack of french. For a long time now, the Hab's organization has been pushing out french canadians from key positions. It is certainly not because of lack of competence since french canadians are over-represented among players/staff at all level of the NHL. If the Canadians were winning, it would be different, but they are on their worst slump in years. This is just the straw that broke the camel's back or as we say up here " la goutte qui a fait deborder le vase". If the new coach manages to turns things around, it will all blow over. __________________

12-20-11, 05:47 PM	#22
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,856 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	1480, Penguin, I apologize if I was overly harsh, as I mentioned I had a bad day. I am a tax lawyer by trade and spent part of the day arguing with a Revenue Quebec collections officer that wants to seize my client's assets even though the tax assessment appears to be invalid. These bureaucrats will drive anyone batty! Merry Christmas all fellow subsimmers! The real mother of debate is just around the corner, the 2012 presidential election. __________________

12-20-11, 11:34 PM	#27
1480 Lead Slinger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Chitcago, Illinoise Posts: 1,442 Downloads: 74 Uploads: 0	To both BR, and Random, no harm no foul. As a hockey fan and player, living in the US, hockey is somewhat a cult following. From what my old man told me, during the 60's the Blackhawks were the only game in town (mild exaggeration). The 70's saw a decline but a resurgence occurred in the 80's, but for all the wrong reasons. I love to see the original six do well. Wish they played more games against each other. It's seeing something that could ultimately hurt the game and it's something that could have been easily avoided had certain people kept their mouths shut. Call it self-interest.... And to all, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, cannot wait for the fur to fly in 2012. __________________

12-21-11, 02:41 AM	#29
gimpy117 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 3,243 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 0	Dear Canada, your friends across the Detroit river are still better. Sincerely, Michigan __________________ Member of the Subsim Zombie Army

12-21-11, 08:41 AM	#30
1480 Lead Slinger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Chitcago, Illinoise Posts: 1,442 Downloads: 74 Uploads: 0	__________________

12-20-11, 05:05 PM	#17
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Heh, heh. I'm not entirely sure that Brooklynese is an English dialect either but then I need my British born wife to translate Dr. Who episodes for me... Language is a sensitive issue in Canada, we have been trying since 1757 to deal with the duality of this country with mixed success. This is probably why this whole Habs coach thing is big in Quebec, a non-issue in The Rest of Canada (TROC) and perplexing to the international membership here. French Canadians do not relate to France hardly at all and consider themselves culturally unique. Up until the late 1950's the social order in Quebec resembled, more than anything else, that of pre-revolutionary France, with the clergy and landowners dominating the rural areas and Anglophone business interests ruling in the industrialized cities. That has changed with the pendulum swinging the other way but the mix of English, Hockey and les Canadien's is seen as potentially exploitable for sovereignists. TROC is seeing nothing new and so response has been mute and it's really none of the rest of the world's business who the Habs corporate bosses hire or why. So taking a poorly worded Yahoonews sound bite and using it to make value judgments on an entire country with neither context or subject knowledge is is bit over the top in my opinion. But it is typical Forum stuff.

12-20-11, 06:46 PM	#25
vienna Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Anywhere but the here & now... Posts: 7,712 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	There actually is a quasi-French enclave in the U.S. known as the Cajuns. Originally from the northern end of the Mississippi River up near Canada, they Live mainly in the area of the state of Louisiana. They speak a dialect of French mixed with English and Caribbean patois. They also do not consider themselves French and have a unique culture. They are not as many as those French speakers in Quebec, but they are as fiercly loyal to their culture...

12-20-11, 07:00 PM	#26
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Actually most Cajuns were Acadians, expelled from the the English colonies of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick (then Acadia) to the French colony of Louisiana when the British feared that the French speaking population as a threat during the Seven-Year's War (aka the French and Indian Wars). They pretty much ethnically cleansed Nova Scotia and PEI but many French speakers remained in New Brunswick, now Canada's only officially bilingual province. Some French speaking New Brunswickers hold a grudge even today... Cajun is a corruption of Acadian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acadians As part of the general peace in 1763 or so France gave up all claims to Quebec which later became the colony of Lower Canada and the English Parliament granted French equal status with English there.

12-21-11, 02:30 AM	#28
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	@ 1480 Cheers and Ditto. Apologies to all if I sounded bombastic. Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays/Bon fete or whatever works for you during this Silly Season.