Eurozone deal reached without UK

Catfish · 12-12-11, 02:11 PM

Cameron now receives fire from his own party and the conservatives because he "isolates Britain".
Where Cameron got the idea of - as he said - Britain leading the EU and after his profound fail continueing to do so, nobody knows ..

Oberon · 12-12-11, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Cameron now receives fire from his own party and the conservatives because he "isolates Britain".
Where Cameron got the idea of - as he said - Britain leading the EU and after his profound fail continueing to do so, nobody knows ..

It's not so much his own party I'd wager...most of the Tories were quite pleased by it, the Euroskeptics in particular, but the Lib Dem side of the coalition are less than impressed. A fact which has been underlined by comments by the Tea Boy (Clegg) and his absense from the Commons this afternoon, which gave Labour a nice field of fire on Dave.

Catfish · 12-12-11, 03:19 PM

Well he has pretty much pi**ed off the "rest" of Europe, and while this is certainly a momentary gain in charming conservatives and EU critics at home, it will influence Britain's international stance - we will see if this is a positive sign and outcome for the british economy. I also doubt England will or wants to be a member of the EU very much longer, and some european countries may be even glad about that. This is bullsh!t, a strong Europe with Britain is the way to go, but since everyone seems to cook his own national soup after 40 years of this union .. and the future of economy and commerce lies in the east (read: Russia, and China) for sure.

They say the Euro was the "price for the german reunification", but i wonder who said that, and why. Imho it was just a political and miltary decision, with Russia not able to pay their military anymore. I also wonder why an Euro is really necessary, apart from simplifying trade and commerce of course.

Skybird · 12-12-11, 04:43 PM

I read that several British cities have started to end their partnerships with partner cities in France and Germany. So far, four got quoted.

These partnerships once were meant to help forming attitudes preventing wars. Usually I would think that the high mobility today, the international communication, the easiness by which private people can now internationally interact, would cause the fading of meaning of such partnerships, and thus it is only natural to let them run out of forget about them.

But in this case I think it is a symptom of the swing in a widespread British mood. Some politicians in Britain - some! - may slap Cameron'S face, and all European politicians may do as well, and people on the continent for the most may not understand it since we got used to opinion uniformity and obligatory displays of mandatory "solidarity", no matter how foul the comprose smelled.

But it seems to me a very big part of the British citizens support the move away from Europe.

It will serve the British economy well - although the financial sector will take a beating - if the Euro collapses. If the Euro stays, it will hurt the British economy. And in the long run the importance of London may fade - intended by the EU - in favour of continental stockmarkets, namely Frankfurt.

No easy match to play for Britain.

Jimbuna · 12-12-11, 04:46 PM

Clegg explains his absence:

Quote:

The deputy prime minister has said he was not present in the House of Commons while David Cameron was questioned about the EU summit because it would have been "a distraction".
He said he thought that the outcome of the talks in Brussels was bad for Britain.
Mr Clegg added: "Being isolated as one is potentially bad for jobs, bad for growth, bad for the livelihood of millions of people in this country. But the coalition government is here to stay."

Video interview here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16149742

Oberon · 12-12-11, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Clegg explains his absence:

Video interview here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16149742

Heh, his absence was probably a bigger distraction than his presence would have been...no...he was gagged and I think it was pretty easy to see. If he had been there then his backbenchers would have put pressure on him to break from the party line and then Dave would have had to have Prague Springed him.

Skybird · 12-12-11, 04:50 PM

And the insiders and the "markets" today: their reaction to the summit was - as was to be expected, wasn'T it - cool, to put it mildly. Rating Agencies fire more warnings, Moodys wanmts to follow S&P example. The euphoria over the EU declaration of future intentions for next Spring (that alone is a joke!) already has dissappeared.

Jimbuna · 12-12-11, 05:06 PM

Never fear..Croatia will sort it all out with her financial contribution

At this rate I'm expecting the referendum issue to be a pivotal part of each partys pre-election campaign next time around.....if we are still in the EU that is.

Skybird · 12-13-11, 06:55 PM

Top lawyers from the EU and independent ones as well find serious flaws in the summit'S conclusion on a fiscal union.

The way it should be implemented in order to avoid a changing of the Lisbon treaty to avoid referendums and needing to ask the people in some countries (these silly homewgrown terrorists) is a separate treaty, but this fact is legally vioolating the priority set for the various treaties they then would have. Complex issue, conclusion is: any sanctions imposed under the new treaty - would be illegal.

The general secretary Barosso I. of the central committee of the SEU meanwhile said that the automatic introduction of sanctions for deficit violators for legal reasons would only become valid if the sanctions become decided by majority of the heads of states. This results from the hierarchy of certain EU treaties that put the authority of this decision being made before sanctions over the demanded automatism of a sub-ordinate treaty they want to get in Spring. Which means the automatism is not any automatic at all. - Confirms just what I said about one hawk not picking the eye of the other, two or three days ago.

Today it gets reported that the supervisors installed to monitor the Greeks, say that Greece already is breaking its promises to the ECB and ICF again, and will not only not meet its obligations, but even increase its deficit - and quite greatly.

Markets and stock indices - well, you have watched the news today, haven't you.

I laughed on the day the summit ended. And I laugh even louder today. Black humour is the only way to stay alive when watching this display of incompetence, unscrupulousness, fraud and infantility.

A mouse that roared. Have you heared it? No...? Hm. Well, doesn't matter. Move on.

Skybird · 12-17-11, 03:42 PM

20-billion Reichsmark note.

A little history lesson in German language: a warning on why it shall not be thought that the crisis today must be solved by printing money, money and then printing more money. In Germany, we have been there - we never shall want to get there again - AT NO COST.

A brief history of the German hyperinflation.

At the end of 1923, the living costs in Germany were 77 billion times as high than they had been immediately after the war 1918.

Oberon · 12-17-11, 04:19 PM

Aaah, the good old Weimer Republic:

To be fair though, the fact that Germany crashed before the Great Depression meant that things couldn't get much worse when '29 hit. In fact, IIRC Germany was one of the least effected of the Western Nations because the DM couldn't sink much lower. Of course that was little consolation for Germany, and of course we all know how it eventually turned out.
Can't say I support the whole 'Merkel = Hitler' propaganda, but there is certainly a risk of cunning people using the dire economic circumstances to politically profit and put forward an agenda that in Boom times would be laughed out of legislation.

Of course, since I have incurred Godwins law, my whole post is now irrelevant.

Oberon · 12-12-11, 04:47 PM

A lot of popular opinion in the UK though, from what I can tell, is actually in favour of Daves actions though, there has been nothing but negativity about the EU for the past twenty years and most Britains seem to be pretty fed up of it. For most problems we are told "We cannot do this because of EU regulations", particularly in the farming and fishing industry. As a result there is not inconsiderable resentment towards the EU in Britain, something which I think that Dave has unwittingly tapped into. It's obvious his stance has nothing to do with the average Joe Public and everything to do with the fat cats in the City, but he can, and will, spin it that he did it for the people not the banks.
The amount of resentment from the EU towards the UK is only going to feed the anti-EU sentiment in the UK and will, in time, most likely result in the UK withdrawing from the EU or at the least withdrawing from a lot of its commitments to the EU.
If conducted correctly, a withdrawal from the EU is feasible within the next ten to fifteen years, however that requires a level of consistency and forward thinking which is unseen in modern politics and thus any British withdrawal from the EU is likely to be a frenzied, damaging affair conducted under a cloud of emotion and angry diplomatic exchanges...it's for this reason I am against it because it would be, as I have already said, like taking a tree out of the ground without bringing the roots, replanting it and expecting it to grow, our roots, our trade is firmly linked within the EU market, there is no question of it, and a sudden withdrawal and the adjustment of tariffs that would follow it (particularly if Berlin and Paris, in a fit of anger, decide to raise tariffs against the UK) would devastate our economy in a period when it really cannot afford to have such damage. We're not the US, we do not have the luxury of being able to keep putting the problem to one side, nor are we Russia, with massive oil reserves to sell...if we get into an economic problem outside of the EU, then we'll have no-one to rescue us.

Then again, by the time we'd get into a problem in the EU then there'd be no-one left to rescue us anyway!

12-12-11, 04:43 PM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,683 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I read that several British cities have started to end their partnerships with partner cities in France and Germany. So far, four got quoted. These partnerships once were meant to help forming attitudes preventing wars. Usually I would think that the high mobility today, the international communication, the easiness by which private people can now internationally interact, would cause the fading of meaning of such partnerships, and thus it is only natural to let them run out of forget about them. But in this case I think it is a symptom of the swing in a widespread British mood. Some politicians in Britain - some! - may slap Cameron'S face, and all European politicians may do as well, and people on the continent for the most may not understand it since we got used to opinion uniformity and obligatory displays of mandatory "solidarity", no matter how foul the comprose smelled. But it seems to me a very big part of the British citizens support the move away from Europe. It will serve the British economy well - although the financial sector will take a beating - if the Euro collapses. If the Euro stays, it will hurt the British economy. And in the long run the importance of London may fade - intended by the EU - in favour of continental stockmarkets, namely Frankfurt. No easy match to play for Britain. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

12-12-11, 04:50 PM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,683 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	And the insiders and the "markets" today: their reaction to the summit was - as was to be expected, wasn'T it - cool, to put it mildly. Rating Agencies fire more warnings, Moodys wanmts to follow S&P example. The euphoria over the EU declaration of future intentions for next Spring (that alone is a joke!) already has dissappeared. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

12-12-11, 05:06 PM	#8
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,755 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Never fear..Croatia will sort it all out with her financial contribution At this rate I'm expecting the referendum issue to be a pivotal part of each partys pre-election campaign next time around.....if we are still in the EU that is. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

12-13-11, 06:55 PM	#9
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,683 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Top lawyers from the EU and independent ones as well find serious flaws in the summit'S conclusion on a fiscal union. The way it should be implemented in order to avoid a changing of the Lisbon treaty to avoid referendums and needing to ask the people in some countries (these silly homewgrown terrorists) is a separate treaty, but this fact is legally vioolating the priority set for the various treaties they then would have. Complex issue, conclusion is: any sanctions imposed under the new treaty - would be illegal. The general secretary Barosso I. of the central committee of the SEU meanwhile said that the automatic introduction of sanctions for deficit violators for legal reasons would only become valid if the sanctions become decided by majority of the heads of states. This results from the hierarchy of certain EU treaties that put the authority of this decision being made before sanctions over the demanded automatism of a sub-ordinate treaty they want to get in Spring. Which means the automatism is not any automatic at all. - Confirms just what I said about one hawk not picking the eye of the other, two or three days ago. Today it gets reported that the supervisors installed to monitor the Greeks, say that Greece already is breaking its promises to the ECB and ICF again, and will not only not meet its obligations, but even increase its deficit - and quite greatly. Markets and stock indices - well, you have watched the news today, haven't you. I laughed on the day the summit ended. And I laugh even louder today. Black humour is the only way to stay alive when watching this display of incompetence, unscrupulousness, fraud and infantility. A mouse that roared. Have you heared it? No...? Hm. Well, doesn't matter. Move on. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

12-17-11, 03:42 PM	#10
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,683 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	20-billion Reichsmark note. A little history lesson in German language: a warning on why it shall not be thought that the crisis today must be solved by printing money, money and then printing more money. In Germany, we have been there - we never shall want to get there again - AT NO COST. A brief history of the German hyperinflation. At the end of 1923, the living costs in Germany were 77 billion times as high than they had been immediately after the war 1918. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

12-12-11, 02:11 PM	#1
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,797 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Cameron now receives fire from his own party and the conservatives because he "isolates Britain". Where Cameron got the idea of - as he said - Britain leading the EU and after his profound fail continueing to do so, nobody knows ..

12-12-11, 03:19 PM	#3
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,797 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Well he has pretty much pi**ed off the "rest" of Europe, and while this is certainly a momentary gain in charming conservatives and EU critics at home, it will influence Britain's international stance - we will see if this is a positive sign and outcome for the british economy. I also doubt England will or wants to be a member of the EU very much longer, and some european countries may be even glad about that. This is bullsh!t, a strong Europe with Britain is the way to go, but since everyone seems to cook his own national soup after 40 years of this union .. and the future of economy and commerce lies in the east (read: Russia, and China) for sure. They say the Euro was the "price for the german reunification", but i wonder who said that, and why. Imho it was just a political and miltary decision, with Russia not able to pay their military anymore. I also wonder why an Euro is really necessary, apart from simplifying trade and commerce of course.

12-17-11, 04:19 PM	#11
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Aaah, the good old Weimer Republic: To be fair though, the fact that Germany crashed before the Great Depression meant that things couldn't get much worse when '29 hit. In fact, IIRC Germany was one of the least effected of the Western Nations because the DM couldn't sink much lower. Of course that was little consolation for Germany, and of course we all know how it eventually turned out. Can't say I support the whole 'Merkel = Hitler' propaganda, but there is certainly a risk of cunning people using the dire economic circumstances to politically profit and put forward an agenda that in Boom times would be laughed out of legislation. Of course, since I have incurred Godwins law, my whole post is now irrelevant.

12-12-11, 04:47 PM	#12
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	A lot of popular opinion in the UK though, from what I can tell, is actually in favour of Daves actions though, there has been nothing but negativity about the EU for the past twenty years and most Britains seem to be pretty fed up of it. For most problems we are told "We cannot do this because of EU regulations", particularly in the farming and fishing industry. As a result there is not inconsiderable resentment towards the EU in Britain, something which I think that Dave has unwittingly tapped into. It's obvious his stance has nothing to do with the average Joe Public and everything to do with the fat cats in the City, but he can, and will, spin it that he did it for the people not the banks. The amount of resentment from the EU towards the UK is only going to feed the anti-EU sentiment in the UK and will, in time, most likely result in the UK withdrawing from the EU or at the least withdrawing from a lot of its commitments to the EU. If conducted correctly, a withdrawal from the EU is feasible within the next ten to fifteen years, however that requires a level of consistency and forward thinking which is unseen in modern politics and thus any British withdrawal from the EU is likely to be a frenzied, damaging affair conducted under a cloud of emotion and angry diplomatic exchanges...it's for this reason I am against it because it would be, as I have already said, like taking a tree out of the ground without bringing the roots, replanting it and expecting it to grow, our roots, our trade is firmly linked within the EU market, there is no question of it, and a sudden withdrawal and the adjustment of tariffs that would follow it (particularly if Berlin and Paris, in a fit of anger, decide to raise tariffs against the UK) would devastate our economy in a period when it really cannot afford to have such damage. We're not the US, we do not have the luxury of being able to keep putting the problem to one side, nor are we Russia, with massive oil reserves to sell...if we get into an economic problem outside of the EU, then we'll have no-one to rescue us. Then again, by the time we'd get into a problem in the EU then there'd be no-one left to rescue us anyway!