Is Israel Its Own Worst Enemy?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Clearly, how many times do you manage to trip yourself up with that line of nonsense?


Illegal is illegal, there is no way round that.
Nice to see you trot out the usual bollox, whatever next, calling people anti semites because your country has been a balls up from start to finish?


Dershowitz writing in the Horowitz rag, you really show up your point for what it is.
Well done

I don't care who he writes for....he may even have sex relation with aliens for what i care or Monica Levinsky
I agree with the article...

Bring on some virgin intellectual of your liking.....unbiased and competent.

What is Horowitz rag anyway lol

I don't care who he writes for....he may even have sex relation with aliens for what i care or Monica Levinsky
I agree with the article...

The huge glaring factual errors and extremely narrow and twisted views don't make you question the validity of the article and the arguements it presents?
Of course not, it fits the mental view from the bunker

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The huge glaring factual errors and extremely narrow and twisted views don't make you question the validity of the article and the arguements it presents?
Of course not, it fits the mental view from the bunker

Talking about narrow views... lol
I don't know the guy and the site but he is quite correct...
Now what...is he preparing for second coming or has sex with Glen Beck?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The huge glaring factual errors and extremely narrow and twisted views don't make you question the validity of the article and the arguements it presents?

When you have time could you dissect article and provide your counterarguments, please? Thanks in advance.

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by MH

By using holocaust as excuse?
I don't know what you hear from Jewish communities in Canada or USA but i'm against using holocaust in politics or as excuses.

It may just be me, but almost all of the people who I've met that immigrated from Israel seem to think the world owes them for the holocaust and seem to think Israel is the next big player in world politics.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Always demanding Israel to go back to the borders of pre-1967 would mean to reward military aggression by allowing the aggressor to just go back to start after his aggression failed. But aggression shoudl come at a price.

2 points:
1) No matter what excuse you make, it is hard to deny that Israel attacked in 1967, so this whole "military aggression" thing applies to Israel, actually.
2) The real fault of the whole Israel situation is that perhaps the world should not have been so eager back in 1948 to let Israel built a state on then still predominantly Palestinian land. Any accounting of the intervening wars, and any compromise, should rightfully use THAT, as a starting point.

Where would you like to start?
"asking for more...." That is asking for something different and indeed for something less. The mere fact that it is non violent and only symboloic has the Israeli govt. and its mouthpieces in a frenzy over how to make it look bad, much like they did when the PA used americas own statements as the precise wording for a previous motion.

"It is imperative to world peace...." That is just bollox.

"It is also important that...." Once again pure bollox, the proposals, even including from the US statement on the subject don't say that.
Classic donkey oaty from Dershowitz.

"aggression .....aggression..... unjustified" aggression under any definition applies to all sides in the conflicts and all sides have both justified and unjustified elements.

"which was essentially the peace treaty ...." errrr...no, simple as that.

"That's how the laws of war are supposed to work...." are they? He hasn't done very well on the laws of war throughout his piece has he .

"But the negotiations must not begin where previous offers...."not only does that not make sensebut it also appears to be in direct contradiction of his usual "no pre-conditions" line.

"The Arab rejection of the UN partition plan"...it being clearly understood they like that document as long as they leave the words it contains out of it don't they

"A balance must be struck ....." indeed, but he doesn't seem to favour balance at all and supports more barriers to peace not less.

"I was at the United Nations ....." I could swear that he contradicts himself earlier in the piece

"Abbas message, in sum, left little or no room for further compromise...." It left plenty of room, poor Alan has the problem of believing what he writes as true and not seeing that all sides have to compromise.

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu offered ..." he insisted on a precondition as he made the statement plus was totally undermined by his own deputy.

Would you like to go through in more detail?

As an extra bit of fun can you see the glaring error in Skybirds little piece after the article?

[Sammi79]

Originally Posted by Skybird

If you can, focus on the content and argument of the following, not on the source. The message is more important than the name of the messenger.

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/10/03/w...a-price/print/

Always demanding Israel to go back to the borders of pre-1967 would mean to reward military aggression by allowing the aggressor to just go back to start after his aggression failed. But aggression shoudl come at a price.

Or would anyone argue that Germany has any claim to make that Poland has to giove back the "occupied territories" it kept from former pre-WWII Germany...?

And the following is in German, about the dubious origin of this oh so precious thing called "Palestinian identity". But this identity is a very queer and anything but obvious thing in fact. The ironic thing here is that this article was published in an extremely left-leaning, anti-national weekly magazine. A very short summary of it would be: the palestinian identiy, the Palestinian people - it is just an invention, a piece of fiction, that in the ends demands all territory between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan to be cleaned of any Jewish presence. And this in a leftist paper. But still - there is no such thing as a Palestinian identity in the meaning of an ethnic, racial, tribal nature of a people.

http://jungle-world.com/artikel/2011/39/44061.html

the first article is ridiculous IMHO talking about not rewarding past aggression - I.E. punishing past aggression - some of the most fundamental reasons that created the conditions in Germany that led directly to Hitler and WWII. By acting like this, Israel are encouraging anti-semitic feeling the world over and if it keeps going one day they will reap their reward. As other people have pointed out, Israel commenced the attack in '67 so the 'they started it' argument falls flat I'm afraid. I have heard many times Israelis say 'The Jews are the best [people on earth]' well why don't you bloody act like it then and lead by example? Holding pregnant women at checkpoints for hours, stray bullets killing primary school children while they take lessons in their classrooms, bulldozing family homes. Makes me sick. Only thing worse is the consistent US veto preventing any resolution that would put real pressure on Israel to clean up its act. The IDF are worse than the nazis particularly as they seem to believe in some some of god given right to act like them. I have spoken with liberal Israelis (they do exist just are not so vocal) who have confirmed my views on this, I have read history and watched the IDF bulldoze, bomb and gas Palestinians mostly children for my entire life. Yes the Israelis have experienced terrorism and all its brutality, but the violence they perpetrate themselves far outweighs it. Remember what happened after Munich? f'ing Israeli hit squads terrorising and murdering any opposition WORLDWIDE.

@skybird - Poland to give back territory granted them after WWII which was stolen by Germany long before WWI? please. The Palestinian identity a fiction? no more so than the Israeli one. In fact Palestine existed as a country before Israel did. You can bash on about biblical times if you like, the fact is, modern Israel and Palestine were both created in the same moment after WWII from the pre-existing land of Palestine.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

2 points:
1) No matter what excuse you make, it is hard to deny that Israel attacked in 1967, so this whole "military aggression" thing applies to Israel, actually.
2) The real fault of the whole Israel situation is that perhaps the world should not have been so eager back in 1948 to let Israel built a state on then still predominantly Palestinian land. Any accounting of the intervening wars, and any compromise, should rightfully use THAT, as a starting point.

The IDF are worse than the nazis particularly as they seem to believe in some some of god given right to act like them. I have spoken with liberal Israelis (they do exist just are not so vocal) who have confirmed my views on this, I have read history and watched the IDF bulldoze, bomb and gas Palestinians mostly children for my entire life. Yes the Israelis have experienced terrorism and all its brutality, but the violence they perpetrate themselves far outweighs it. Remember what happened after Munich? f'ing Israeli hit squads terrorising and murdering any opposition WORLDWIDE.

WOW...where have you all grown up people?
In Syria?

@Tribesman-Bullox

I find it interesting that people who live in free nations and have access to all the information cone up with this.....

[Sammi79]

I grew up in Wales, MH. Clue in sig. I apologize for not adding 'IMHO' to my statement that you quoted - this is simply how it appears to me. Can you show me different? Kazuaki made a good point about our nations being at least partially responsible in some way for the current situation, regarding their post WWII actions relocating displaced Jews to land that already had an indigenous population including Islamic and Jewish peoples alike, who at that time existed in reasonable harmony with each other. Can you argue against this?

Can you address any of the other points in my post? or are you going to resort to simple insults like 'where did you grow up, Syria?' I bet you grew up in Israel, am I right? Should I assume that because of that your opinions are invalid? (or at the very least, pro-Israeli biased) If I had grown up in Syria, why would my opinions or feelings be any less valid? Yes I live a world away and maybe I don't understand the convoluted intricacies of the situation as well as I might, but I can remain objective. It makes no difference to me if Israel decides to openly declare war and take all the land of Palestine for its own, or if the Arab nations gang up again and destroy the state of Israel. The fact remains, that Israel is breaking laws of the Geneva convention almost daily, and is subjecting the Palestinians in the contested areas to what amounts to slow genocide, economic and physical, and is very comparable to the nazis treatment of the Jews in Germany. The objective is IMHO to make life so unbearable for the Palestinian Arabs that they will leave voluntarily, thus ending the contention by default, at which point Israel can simply claim the land as they have already settled upon it, while avoiding the obvious backlash that would occur if war were declared openly. It is because I have access to all the information as you put it that has led me to this conclusion. I invite you again to show me different.

@Tribesman-Bullox

Awwww wassamatter MH is the truth too much for you to handle, are simple little details too complicated

I find it interesting that people who live in free nations and have access to all the information cone up with this.....

I find it interesting that you are unable to counter perfectly valid points.
I agree Sammi has gone well over the top on an extremely simplistic approach....but then again you wrote that you like the views of a rabid loony zionist who thinks Israel as an approach to peace should be doing exactly what the Nazis did in the Balkans
Oh I forgot you don't know the writer or his views ...or the people he writes for or their views...then again you were also unfamiliar with even the existance of a whole pile of Israeli media outlets, clueless about the different political parties in government, seemed oblivious to the fact the Knesset runs a comprehensive online archive and that the IDF has its own news service where you can read its own inquiries and its own version of events.
Why are you starved of information?
Do you live in syria or something ?
Why is your vaunted local "expertise" so lacking?
Is your bunker in Bosra

[Penguin]

So what is the obsession with Israel?
Where were the protests against the occupation of the Baltic states when the USSR existed? Who cries about Manchuria anymore? What about Greenland?
Where are the demonstrations in Europe against the Syrian slaughter of the opposition? How many people boycott China for its oppression in Tibet? Are there people not buying products from Alaska, because the Russians sold their land too cheap in a legal contract?

Swedish "lefties" who prevent a tennis match where Israeli players participate: what the **** does a tennis player has to do with his government? How many people storm sports events where people from authoritarian countries participate?

Any foundation of a state in the history of the world had injustices, so revert it all back?

I see this fixation on Israel and it pees me off - it's hard to see only a genuine interest in the rights of the Palestinians rather than prejudices and old stereotypes.

@Sammi: I'd like to address your points, because they remind me of how I argued 20 years ago, so I can understand them to an extend. As I am on the run, and don't want to rush it, I'll write an answer down tomorrow.

[August]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

2 points:
1) No matter what excuse you make, it is hard to deny that Israel attacked in 1967, so this whole "military aggression" thing applies to Israel, actually

It's just as hard to deny that if the IDF hadn't attacked the Arabs would definitely have invaded and probably have overrun them. It was suicide to wait and any objective person knows it. Like forcing a cop to wait until a perp opens fire before taking him out.

[Sammi79]

OK I guess I went a little too far with my simplistic tit for tat approach and I apologize for that. Just reading some propaganda can evoke an angry response in me, not that that excuses it.

@August, fair point. There is evidence to support both views on that argument, but I personally would lean towards yours.
@Penguin, I look forward to your analysis of my ranting kind sir. I'm sure you or MH or Tribesman could tear it to shreds. In fact I am a little surprised that they haven't done so already.
Regarding the topic, I would humbly suggest in my limited view that if peace is truly the goal, at least 3 things need to be done by each 'side' and these will take time, I will put them next to each other and in order Israel first then Palestinians as they are not allowed to be considered a nation yet if ever :-

---

1) Israel must stop immediately building in the contested areas, as these need to be open for negotiation, and continued building directly implies that Israel is unwilling to negotiate these areas.

1) Palestinians must stop immediately all violence towards Israel, and hand over or make known to Israeli authorities, any criminals that refuse to do so for fair trial in Israeli courts. This should also apply to retaliatory strikes by the IDF, as both of these actions are particularly harmful to the peace process.

---

2) Israel must start making provisions to relocate settlers in the contested areas into uncontested land, for the same reason as 1) of course, this will take time, possibly decades. It will also cost a lot of money. Setting up charities globally could help with this, and I think the majority of thinking people around today would be glad to help this situation resolve peacefully, particularly nations like the UK who should accept the larger share of the responsibility due to their role in the befuddled slicing up of their mandated territory post WWI but also the USA who should accept their responsibility for the massive immigration of Americans into the newly formed state of Israel post WWII

2) Palestinians must suppress the infighting and contradictory stances of the hard line Hamas and Fatah groups, though if 1) is achieved I would assume (perhaps wrongly) that this will no longer be a problem, and elect a unified political leading group that represents ALL Palestinians in view of negotiations and the possibility of becoming a real nation at some point in the future.

---

3) While Israel is still the governing body in the contested areas, all peoples currently residing within them of legal age should be given the vote on Israeli politics, until such a time as Israel renounces its governing authority completely in said zones, in view of completing point 2).

3) Palestinians should continue to protest any unfair treatment by Israeli authorities (in their view) en-masse in a peaceful way, avoiding antagonistic behavior such as rock throwing etc. use modern technology to record these events, for future analysis and global education. When the world is watching the hard liners on both sides will find their spheres of influence shrinking fast.

---

That would be a beginning. I tried very hard to be fair with this, here in the UK we see a lot of media simply covering the violence, also a lot of documentaries sympathetic to the Palestinian viewpoint. There really are not very many from the Israeli side and this tends to make people think that the Israelis are lording it over the Palestinians in every which way, coupled with the violence, and the British tendency to support the underdog, and you see where a lot of us outsiders get our prejudices. Again not excusing it, simply stating how I experience it. If more people were recording the actual events particularly from the Israeli side, it would be easier to make sure for instance that Palestinians in Israeli courts get fair trials, and violent criminals could be easier identified, abuse of human rights could be prevented etc... I really don't want to get into a debate about it, but to finish I must add, religious extremists on both sides do nothing to help and should be silenced, as a priority. On this point I provide a link to one of few documentaries from the Israeli side, and I must also warn that the Israelis in it are the true believers as it were, and should definitely not be taken as representative of Israelis as a whole. I would appreciate if someone could point me to a source of information not solely based on examining the viewpoint of the hard liners as I said, I have spoken with Israelis who agree that their government and the IDFs policies and actions regarding the situation are wrong, but thus far this is one of the better docs I have found.

http://documentaryheaven.com/louis-theroux-the-ultra-zionists/

[Skybird]

^
Nice ideas. Now let's see the realities. Iran is heavily interfering in Lebanon and the Palstinians. Jerusalem is non-negotiable for the Israelis. The Palestinians never were unified, and probbaly never will be. Maybe that is because there is no such thing like a homogenous Palestinian ethnicity. Allowing Arabs full access to internal Israeli legislation, would mean that sooner or later there would be more Arabs than Jews living in Israel, putting its existence even more into question. The "Arab Spring" - what an euphemism, the revolutions all seem to have led to fundamentaliusts becoming string and going for power - showed how a state can be ripped apart from within. The destruction of Israel remains to be a deep-rooting desire not onyl amongst Palestinians, but Arabs in othger states as well - see the events in Egypt - Mubarak may have controlled the border and may have honoured diplomatic relations, but he was unable to chnage the street'S sentiments against Israel.

You may mean it well, and just. But you simply ignore the simple bitter facts of realities on the ground. People are not like you assume they are.

Also, you ignore that the cionflict in the region is not so much basing on the Palestinian-Israeli confrontation, but the Sunni-Shia confrontation, and the Saudi and Iranian interests for dominance. If you think you create peace by solving Palestine peacefully, than you are wrong. The latter of tha two conflicts mntioned is what drives the show. Beside that fact remains that Islam by ideology is deeply antisemitic since all bgeinning on. Muhammad suffered a great narcissistic offen ce from the Jews, and he took revenge by waging war and committing genocide. Since then, Jews are simply dirt, in Islam's eyes.

Also, racist education is booming amongst Palestinians since very long, check their TV programs. Evcen the kids already get fed racist sh!t that in Western countries would bring makers of such programs into prison immediately. An attitude already founded since the age of let'S say 3 or 4, a social tradition of celebrating the lament over the losses of the far far away past - yopu think you can chnage that by a piece of paper with some signatures? I am not young and naive enough anymore to believe such things. Judaism is very much fixiated on the far away past and past losses, too -since millenias. This should serve you as an example - why do you assume that Palestinians tick differently, although Islam is very fixiated on the past, too?

These euzrpean forethinkers, they are too disconnected from reality, and mistake man and world how they think it should be with how they really are. And thre truth is, man is a domested animal, his instincts and lower sentiments are easier to appeal to than his potential skill for reason, and hate that has been there since generations and centuries and millenias cannot be neutrlasied just by poltiical decisions. It did not work anywhere in the conflicts thre West eyed or participated in in the past 20 years, not in Kosovo and the Balkan war, not in the Georgia conflict, not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan.

And the "militants" you want to keep in check, they are part of the Lebanese government and have made a very very big footprint in that country now, a heavily armed Iranian outpost just waiting for going wild again. Political-relgious fundamentalists - you cannot argue wioth them, you cannot appeal tpo their reason, you cannot negotiate and trust in diplomatic treaties with them - proven by history over and opver and over again.

And finally, you are aware that Turkey also has no interest in having the issue settled, are you? And Turkey is playing the big man down there very much since some years. Turkey NEEDS the conflict kept alive for its very own powergame.

In the light of all this, you list of musts and shoulds is just this - well-meant, but ignorring of realities. All EU's ideas about this socalled "peace process" in the past 15 years have been that: well-meant, but ignorring realities. If Israel unilaterally would do like you and the other clever minds demand it to do, it would be a program of self-destruction. I personally don't think that in the very long perpsective Isarael can hold out, for demographic, military, economic, geographic and ideologic reasons, but this does not lead me to saying that they should stop trying to resist.