I was playing SH3 when

[JazzJR]

Well even if the British captured a Enigma.

But the history of capturing Enigma machines and breaking their codes had already begun in Europe. An earlier military Enigma machine had been captured by Polish Intelligence in 1928. Polish intelligence broke the Enigma code in 1932 and gave their findings to Britain and France in 1939, just before the German invasion of Poland.

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I know I've posted similarly elsewhere in the past but this just about sums the film up for me:

Agree completely... When I first saw the film the historical 'distortion' nearly made me ill.

The article goes on to say:

It was a distortion... a mercenary decision to create this parallel history in order to drive the movie for an American audience," he said.

It's a shame they have such a low opinion of Americans to suggest they wouldn't watch something unless they happen to be the chief protagonists. Strikes me as rather insulting.

[Pisces]

I fell for it. Right into that Destroyer scene. It's on RTL7 now (Dutch commercial channel)

[XTChrisTX]

I liked that movie. Yeah, it was probably brutally unrealistic, but it was still entertaining. The American mission depicted in the movie didn't happen and I guess that's something people don't understand. It even lists the actual Enigma captures at the end. And the depth charge scene is amazing- if your sound system can handle it.

But maybe I just have horrible taste, because I found Das Boot unbelievably boring. It may be more authentic, but it was boring. I would- and I am quite serious here- take U-571 over Das Boot any day.

Then again, I am the same guy who created SH3 Retarded: Nazi Cocaine and I don't like GWX either. So maybe I'm just the devil's advocate of the forum.

[JazzJR]

Originally Posted by XTChrisTX

I would- and I am quite serious here- take U-571 over Das Boot any day.

You better RUN!! RUN FAST!!!!!

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

"Never, but never call me to see the U-571 on tv!!!"

Because it's much better on the bigger screen of a cinema?

And American audiences* don't seem to be able of seeing other nations' movies (or TV shows) without first converting it (The Ring, Taxi, Funny Game, True Lies (la Totale), Shameless, ...)

*Obviously not including subsimmers

[GoDeep]

I too am one of those people that gets annoyed at historical inaccuracies in a movie. If you're going to make a historical movie (even an alternate history one), at least have the decency to get your facts straight.

Things that ruined U-571 for me:

• U-571 is disabled closer to European waters than US waters, yet somehow the S-33 departing from the US arrived before the German rescue sub? And with time to modify the S-33 to look more like a German sub?
• When U-571 is captured, they have to cross the Western Approaches, which is described as the German's backyard, crawling with U-boats. Fair enough, but explain to me what a single German destroyer is doing there?
• How did the single-engined German fighter (ME-109?) get in the middle of the Atlantic?
• Depth charges exploding just metres from the hull of U-571, yet the hull isn't even dented.
• The chief (Harvey Keitel) tells about being depth charged once, off the coast of Murmansk in WW1. What would a US sub be doing at Murmansk? What would a German destroyer be doing outside of Murmansk? AFAIK, no US sub ever fought in European waters in WW1.
• During the confrontation with the German destroyer, the US boarding party calmly readies the deck gun for firing. How on earth would the German destroyer crew have let this happen without firing a single shot?
• The German sub commander orders his crew to fire on survivors with the AA gun. AFAIK, this happened only once in reality and if I remember correctly, the German commander was court-martialed for this, by the Germans.
• When the German destroyer hunts U-571 which has now submerged, you can hear pinging noises. Since the Germans didn't have ASDIC AFAIK, who or what is pinging U-571?

Still, I watched it again on RTL7 a few nights ago just because there was a U-boat in it. It was worth a chuckle or two. My wife did the chuckling at me shaking my head and getting wound up about movie inaccuracies. It's just a movie, she said...

[JazzJR]

Originally Posted by GoDeep

• The German sub commander orders his crew to fire on survivors with the AA gun. AFAIK, this happened only once in reality and if I remember correctly, the German commander was court-martialed for this, by the Germans.

You mean Kptlt. Heinz-Wilhelm Eck from U-852 (IX D2) He and some of his officers came to a british court-martial and were executed for sinking the greek Freighter "SS Peleus" if it was a fair hearing is still unknown. He was sinking the SS Peleus and since he had order to wipe out every evidences he shot on wreckages and also on the life boats of the survivors. But since the boats were still intact after firing with all kind of Flak guns, he decided to throw grenades at these. Also hitting some of the suvivors by MG fire.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by GoDeep

I too am one of those people that gets annoyed at historical inaccuracies in a movie.

I just finished watching The Tudors. It's a combination of great film-making, taking great lengths to explain historical details and causes to an unfamiliar audience, then turning around and butchering other parts of the story. I enjoyed it, but still had several teeth-grinding moments...no, make that hours.

If you're going to make a historical movie (even an alternate history one), at least have the decency to get your facts straight.

As much as I hate the movie, I'm going to try to tackle some of your personal objections.

U-571 is disabled closer to European waters than US waters, yet somehow the S-33 departing from the US arrived before the German rescue sub? And with time to modify the S-33 to look more like a German sub?

I thought the u-boat was operating on the western side of Greenland, but I'm not going to watch it again to make sure.

When U-571 is captured, they have to cross the Western Approaches, which is described as the German's backyard, crawling with U-boats. Fair enough, but explain to me what a single German destroyer is doing there?

True. On the other hand, if I'm right about the location it's even worse, because German destroyers had stability problems when the fuel was low, and were limited to a relatively short range.

How did the single-engined German fighter (ME-109?) get in the middle of the Atlantic?

Obviously they were operating from the secret base in Greenland, as depicted in the 1943 movie Crash Dive.

Depth charges exploding just metres from the hull of U-571, yet the hull isn't even dented.

Well, the depth charges in Das Boot were so close that any one of them would have cracked the hull and sank the boat, so I have to give them that one.

The chief (Harvey Keitel) tells about being depth charged once, off the coast of Murmansk in WW1. What would a US sub be doing at Murmansk? What would a German destroyer be doing outside of Murmansk? AFAIK, no US sub ever fought in European waters in WW1.

Maybe he served in a British sub. Or a German one.

During the confrontation with the German destroyer, the US boarding party calmly readies the deck gun for firing. How on earth would the German destroyer crew have let this happen without firing a single shot?

Everybody knows German are stupid and have the worst soldiers and sailors possible. That's the real reason they lost the war.

The German sub commander orders his crew to fire on survivors with the AA gun. AFAIK, this happened only once in reality and if I remember correctly, the German commander was court-martialed for this, by the Germans.

Heinz-Wilhelm Eck torpedoed the Greek freighter Peleus on March 13, 1944 and then proceeded to shoot survivors in life rafts. Three men survived to tell the tale, and Eck's war diary survived the wrecking of U-852. On November 30, 1945, Eck and two of his officers were executed by an Allied war crimes court.

When the German destroyer hunts U-571 which has now submerged, you can hear pinging noises. Since the Germans didn't have ASDIC AFAIK, who or what is pinging U-571?

I'm pretty sure German destroyers had active sonar, but verification will hinge on me getting my copy of German Destroyers of World War Two out of storage, and that may be awhile.

Still, I watched it again on RTL7 a few nights ago just because there was a U-boat in it. It was worth a chuckle or two. My wife did the chuckling at me shaking my head and getting wound up about movie inaccuracies. It's just a movie, she said...

Don't you hate it when they put things in perspective?

[JazzJR]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Everybody knows German are stupid and have the worst soldiers and sailors possible. That's the real reason they lost the war.

But they had good ships and had to scuttle them because the british ships weren't able to sink them. They should have build two or more Bismarcks and one of two carriers as support.

Heinz-Wilhelm Eck torpedoed the Greek freighter Peleus on March 13, 1944 and then proceeded to shoot survivors in life rafts.

Actually he was planning to destroy the rafts. But since these was the only way they might be able to survive it doesn't really matter.

[GoDeep]

Originally Posted by JazzJR

[/LIST]You mean Kptlt. Heinz-Wilhelm Eck from U-852 (IX D2) He and some of his officers came to a british court-martial and were executed for sinking the greek Freighter "SS Peleus" if it was a fair hearing is still unknown. He was sinking the SS Peleus and since he had order to wipe out every evidences he shot on wreckages and also on the life boats of the survivors. But since the boats were still intact after firing with all kind of Flak guns, he decided to throw grenades at these. Also hitting some of the suvivors by MG fire.

Yes, you are correct. That is the occurrence I meant and obviously I should have gotten *my* facts straight before going off on a rant. Alas...that's what ranting causes...

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Everybody knows German are stupid and have the worst soldiers and sailors possible. That's the real reason they lost the war.

It's hard to believe they conquered most of Europe based on the stumbling, bumbling portrayal in most movies. Come to think of it, how did the war last so long when the Germans lost almost every battle ever filmed?

[GoDeep]

Appreciate the feedback, Sailor Steve. By tackling my personal objections, you meant bolstering them, right?

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I just finished watching The Tudors. It's a combination of great film-making, taking great lengths to explain historical details and causes to an unfamiliar audience, then turning around and butchering other parts of the story. I enjoyed it, but still had several teeth-grinding moments...no, make that hours.

One of the problem with doing historical dramas or films is that the further you move away from the present day, the more "alien" your subject matter becomes to a present day audience and the less reliable and scarce your sources become. To make the story palatable or even understandable to modern audiences, I can imagine taking certain liberties with the source material. Let's face it, not all history is that interesting. It is also inevitable that you will get some things wrong, simply because they are disputed, you asked the wrong expert or something like that. There's a difference between artistic freedom and real mistakes, though.

I quite enjoyed the Tudors, by the way. Despite the faults it has.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I thought the u-boat was operating on the western side of Greenland, but I'm not going to watch it again to make sure.

In the film, U-571 was reported here. That's almost in the middle of the North Atlantic.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Well, the depth charges in Das Boot were so close that any one of them would have cracked the hull and sank the boat, so I have to give them that one.

True, but then again, Das Boot has many redeeming features so this one was easier to forgive.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Everybody knows German are stupid and have the worst soldiers and sailors possible. That's the real reason they lost the war.

Oh, a destroyer full of Bernhards? That would explain why they were in the middle of the Atlantic too. They probably got lost!

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Heinz-Wilhelm Eck torpedoed the Greek freighter Peleus on March 13, 1944 and then proceeded to shoot survivors in life rafts. Three men survived to tell the tale, and Eck's war diary survived the wrecking of U-852. On November 30, 1945, Eck and two of his officers were executed by an Allied war crimes court.

Yes, JazzJR corrected that already. I got my facts wrong too, so perhaps I should cut the film makers some slack...

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I'm pretty sure German destroyers had active sonar, but verification will hinge on me getting my copy of German Destroyers of World War Two out of storage, and that may be awhile.

If they did, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. That doesn't mean they didn't have it, of course. I might have been reading the wrong material.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Don't you hate it when they put things in perspective?

Just now, she mentioned "Are you still going on about that movie?" I showed her some of the other responses in this thread and the reaction was a shrug and a sighed "men".

[GoDeep]

Originally Posted by Fish In The Water

It's hard to believe they conquered most of Europe based on the stumbling, bumbling portrayal in most movies. Come to think of it, how did the war last so long when the Germans lost almost every battle ever filmed?

They cast more extras?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by GoDeep

Appreciate the feedback, Sailor Steve. By tackling my personal objections, you meant bolstering them, right?

Of course. At first I just wanted to correct the "Eck" thing, but the more I went on the more fun it got.

One of the problem with doing historical dramas...There's a difference between artistic freedom and real mistakes, though.

I completely agree. On the other hand there's an even bigger difference between artistic freedom and saying "We don't care - they won't know the difference."

I once had a huge argument with a friend over the 1974 version of The Three Musketeers and the 1992 Disney version. My friend kept going on about how much better the Disney version was, and he finally asked me how I could possibly support the earlier version with all of it's slapstick comedy. My reply was this: On the one hand we have a pair of movies which, for any flaws you can name, are faithful to the book with a few exceptions I can list. On the other hand you have an arrogant scriptwriter and filmmaker who threw one of the best-selling novels of all time in the trash and decided they could write a better story. While not history, sticking at least somewhat close to the book wins points in my judgement.

I quite enjoyed the Tudors, by the way. Despite the faults it has.

Me too. Where they stick with the real history they do a great job of explaining it, and keeping it entertaining. I'm still a huge fan of The Six Wives Of Henry VIII from 1971, but it too has its flaws.

In the film, U-571 was reported here. That's almost in the middle of the North Atlantic.

Good enough. As I said, I can't force myself to watch it again.

True, but then again, Das Boot has many redeeming features so this one was easier to forgive.

I know. There were a lot of things I would like to have seen done differently, but they got the feel right, and made you believe you were there.

If they did, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. That doesn't mean they didn't have it, of course. I might have been reading the wrong material.

In the book Das Boot, Buchheim reflects while being depth charged that now he knows what it felt like for those poor Tommies when the destroyer he earlier served on gave it to a British submarine. That would have been difficult withour some type of locating device. But as I said before, without my books I can't even give a reference - just a memory.

Just now, she mentioned "Are you still going on about that movie?" I showed her some of the other responses in this thread and the reaction was a shrug and a sighed "men".

Well, she's got us there.