9/11 anniversary: Attacks made US stronger, Obama says

[August]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Er ...No Im not, re-read my posts.

I have and yes you did.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by August

I have and yes you did.

If thats how you want to interpret it, thats up to you.
What else can I say..... I was using it as an example: that people get behind their leader when the **** hits the fan - and that we'll all do it.
Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Which creates a semi-related question:

Can a person by his/her own reasoning become a supporter of what authorities say? Because it seems that whenever people are being called to think for themselves, it also includes the implication of disagreeing with the authorities. I for one agree with quite many things that my country's authorities do and say, while disagreeing with others. Am I a brainwashed sheep?

Agreeing with specific government policies represents brainwashing no more than disagreeing with them. The danger becomes apparent when the speaker or writer agrees (or disagrees) with all stated policies across the board seemingly without analyzing each one. Many party-liners in America do exactly that. If you're a Conservative you hate gays, abortion, any kind of social welfare and of course any government spending. If you're a Liberal you believe that the Government is the answer to every problem man can have. Of course there are huge numbers of people who don't agree with every policy but support the party that mostly agrees with them.

Blindly following anything without question is dangerous, and that includes the concept of hating the party in power, or government in general, so much that you condemn anyone who agrees with any policy put forth by that party.

So no, you're not brainwashed because you agree with some policy or other, but there are people who will tell you you are. Are they brainwashed? Possibly. I'd say you have to worry about the ones who are all one or the other. Anybody who actually thinks for himself will never be that absolute, or convinced he's right all the time.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Anybody who actually thinks for himself will never be that absolute, or convinced he's right all the time.

Spot on!

[August]

Originally Posted by JU_88

If thats how you want to interpret it, thats up to you.
What else can I say..... I was using it as an example: that people get behind their leader when the **** hits the fan - and that we'll all do it.
Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.

Well it's a bad example. I won't speak for your country but over here people just don't have such blind allegiance to any individual, especially the President.

Of course there are always those who interpret anything shy of total distaste and hatred as blind allegiance and that might be where you got this idea but remember:

"My country right or wrong" doesn't mean "My leader right or wrong".

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

Well it's a bad example. I won't speak for your country but over here people just don't have such blind allegiance to any individual, especially the President.

Of course there are always those who interpret anything shy of total distaste and hatred as blind allegiance and that might be where you got this idea but remember:

"My country right or wrong" doesn't mean "My leader right or wrong".

There's plenty of "true believers" in this country, as in every country. It's human nature.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by August

Well it's a bad example. I won't speak for your country but over here people just don't have such blind allegiance to any individual, especially the President.

Nah of course not, which is why the majority supported Bush when he traded in some of your civil liberties for protection, then you supported him though two invasions that undermined the U.N, cost you billions of tax dollars and thousands of soldiers lives. All the while pretty much branding anyone who spoke out against these actions as a 'terrorist supporter?' to the tune of his "with us or with the terrorists" speech. Remember the boycott of France?

From out side looking in, the U.S appeared to have decended into a flag waving paranoid angry mob with the president leading the charge.
Does this sound anything like America under normal rational minded circumstances?

You kinda see where these 2001 U.S - 1930s Germany comparisons are coming from now?

Like I said, when any country suffers at he hands of an outside influence, this is pretty much what goes down. America and Germany are just two examples of many, it can happen anywhere to anyone, even to me - Its just an observation so don't take it personally.
And just incase its still not crystal clear, no-one is comparing Amercians to Nazis!

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by JU_88

...then you supported him though two invasions that undermined the U.N...

That's not true!

You can't undermine the UN; it has no authority, power, creditability or integrity to undermine!

"My country right or wrong" doesn't mean "My leader right or wrong".

But either one is still blind.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

That's not true!

You can't undermine the UN; it has no authority, power, creditability or integrity to undermine!

... Anymore

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

That's not true!

You can't undermine the UN; it has no authority, power, creditability or integrity to undermine!

There are certain types of operations that comes from there but never reaches the surface ... then the audience,

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Vendor

There are certain types of operations that comes from there but never reaches the surface ... then the audience,

Top secret shhh, dont tell them about UN's covert blue helmeted ninja squad.

[August]

Originally Posted by JU_88

You kinda see where these 2001 U.S - 1930s Germany comparisons are coming from now?

The comparisons come from you and they are still not valid.

You say a "majority supported Bush", so what? A majority supported Obama just 4 years later. Does that make him our next Fuehrer in your eyes? After all, Adolf Hitler wore pants and, OMG, Barack Obama wears pants! He must be just like Hitler!

Do you really think Hitler and co would have left power voluntarily like Bush and the Republicans did in 2008? This is one reason why your comparison is not valid.

As for the UN. To heck with them. I've been saying we need to kick those UN leeches out of our country for years now, long before George Bush became president. Our dislike of that useless entity (the UN not Bush) does not start or end with him.

[MH]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Nah of course not, which is why the majority supported Bush when he traded in some of your civil liberties for protection, then you supported him though two invasions that undermined the U.N, cost you billions of tax dollars and thousands of soldiers lives. All the while pretty much branding anyone who spoke out against these actions as a 'terrorist supporter?' to the tune of his "with us or with the terrorists" speech. Remember the boycott of France?

UN had never the stomach to do the right thing...not in this case and not in Yugoslavia or ME.
UN always tries to keep majority of its members happy by protecting their own interests.
France had its own business in Iraq.
As some one who claims to be so versatile you should realise at least that much.
I'm not fan of Bush but i still think that most of the criticism toward him is worth as much as some extreme right wing critics toward Obama.
What Bush did may be seen as mistake and gamble which went wrong therefore every one can be so clever about it in retrospective.
Its also good tool for fear mongering about right wing.

"The patriot act" that there is so much ranting about...how it really affect life and freedoms of average American?
The issue grew up to proportion of Bush government wanting to control whole American population while riding on a fear.
Is it true or just regular political crap spawn by left wing?

Its legitimate to defend personal freedoms but all the rant about Bush is over the top.
Its leftist fear mongering no less.

There is lot of polarisation going on from both sides.
I hope USA will find its way after all those turbulent 10 years when jumping from extreme to extreme may be natural in politics.
hiding behind Obama may be seen just as a claim about Bush considering the circumstances.

[August]

Originally Posted by MH

Its legitimate to defend personal freedoms but all the rant about Bush is over the top.
Its leftist fear mongering no less.

Of course it is. Notice he has nothing to say about the two whole years the Democrats ran the whole enchilada but failed to repeal the Patriot act. But to him it's all Bush's fault...