Russia commemorates 70th years since Leningrad siege

CCIP · 09-10-11, 08:03 PM

And if you want a good non-fiction book about it, I highly recommend Leningrad: State of Siege by Michael Jones, which is sitting on the shelf beside me here. A very sober, critical, and balanced look on the situation that gives due respect to the resilience of Leningrad's people through horrible conditions, made worse by often-incompetent political and military leadership (which has been so praised in Soviet literature on the topic). Which makes the city all the more deserving of its' "Hero City" designation, imo.

Krauter · 09-10-11, 08:09 PM

I'll have to look into that, thanks !

Dowly · 09-10-11, 08:14 PM

IIRC, the siege was never complete. Supplies were brought into the city from
north, which, in german plans was expected to be blocked by the Finns, who
refused to wage offensive war past the areas lost in the Winter War.

CCIP · 09-10-11, 08:23 PM

I used to really have an issue with the Finnish position in the siege, but the more I learned the more understanding I became towards it. At the end of the day, if the Finns didn't choose to stop at the Svir' (and they easily could've chosen otherwise), Leningrad may have been doomed. Historically, I think Finland needs to accept some culpability in this massive (and mostly German) war crime, but then of course Russia also has to accept the massive injustices it committed towards Finland that didn't leave them much choice except to side with the Germans.

I think it's also safe to say that if the Finns didn't choose to stop their advance at the Svir', I wouldn't be alive today.

joea · 09-11-11, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

I used to really have an issue with the Finnish position in the siege, but the more I learned the more understanding I became towards it. At the end of the day, if the Finns didn't choose to stop at the Svir' (and they easily could've chosen otherwise), Leningrad may have been doomed. Historically, I think Finland needs to accept some culpability in this massive (and mostly German) war crime, but then of course Russia also has to accept the massive injustices it committed towards Finland that didn't leave them much choice except to side with the Germans.

I think it's also safe to say that if the Finns didn't choose to stop their advance at the Svir', I wouldn't be alive today.

Very fair of you CCIP Finland was the only truly honourable member of the Axis, well IMO. Though I think they were actually an "associated power" and not a real member of the Axis. Plus they kicked you know what.

As for the siege - unimaginable. There is a good thread here by a fellow who is a guide to historical sites related to the siege. Events as they unfolded day by day.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=112905

Of interest to us naval buffs is the big role played by the Red Banner Baltic fleet as floating artillery in defense of the city. They might not have done much else but their role was invaluable.

Hottentot · 09-12-11, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Finland was the only truly honourable member of the Axis, well IMO.

Depends on what you define as honorable, imo. I'd rather say "opportunistic".

When the Winter War ended, it was obvious that we wanted a rematch. The peace agreement was not called "a peace", but "a temporary peace". When the then most powerful European nation (Germany) attacked the Soviet Union, we were happy to jump in the bandwagon.

It has been said that we didn't have a choice (the Driftwood theory), and to certain extent this is true, but I wouldn't swallow it as such: when Barbarossa started, who was going to attack us? The Soviet Union, opening a new front when they were suffering from the German onslaught already and being badly beaten? Or the Germans, who were busy concentrating on their drive to Moscow?

"Honorable" I would define as taking back what we lost in Winter War, but we didn't stop there. Personally I don't doubt that if Germany had won the war, Finland would have been more than happy to occupy some little extra too. However, we left the back door open and it was a wise move: had we participated fully in the siege of Leningrad, I don't think the Soviet Union would have seen us in very good light.

Another example of our honorable behavior was the Ryti-Ribbentrop agreement, but I'm not going to delve any further into that.

Quote:

Though I think they were actually an "associated power" and not a real member of the Axis.

Quote:

Plus they kicked you know what.

We still do.

joea · 09-12-11, 04:16 AM

Good post Hottentot. Maybe "honourable" was too strong-but compared to what other members of the Axis did Finland looks much less bad. Hey as we discuss ad naseaum here the Western Allies (everyone knows what the Soviets did) did some horrible things as well and it still is a controversial topic.

Hottentot · 09-11-11, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

IIRC, the siege was never complete. Supplies were brought into the city from
north, which, in german plans was expected to be blocked by the Finns, who
refused to wage offensive war past the areas lost in the Winter War.

I'm not sure if I misunderstand you here, but we went way past the old border in the Continuation War. Here is a map taken from this page, whereas the border after the Treaty of Tartu looked like this.

Though it's true that Leningrad was intentionally left alone: even the Finnish bombers on recon flights were prohibited from flying over it.

09-10-11, 08:03 PM	#1
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	And if you want a good non-fiction book about it, I highly recommend Leningrad: State of Siege by Michael Jones, which is sitting on the shelf beside me here. A very sober, critical, and balanced look on the situation that gives due respect to the resilience of Leningrad's people through horrible conditions, made worse by often-incompetent political and military leadership (which has been so praised in Soviet literature on the topic). Which makes the city all the more deserving of its' "Hero City" designation, imo. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

09-10-11, 08:23 PM	#4
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I used to really have an issue with the Finnish position in the siege, but the more I learned the more understanding I became towards it. At the end of the day, if the Finns didn't choose to stop at the Svir' (and they easily could've chosen otherwise), Leningrad may have been doomed. Historically, I think Finland needs to accept some culpability in this massive (and mostly German) war crime, but then of course Russia also has to accept the massive injustices it committed towards Finland that didn't leave them much choice except to side with the Germans. I think it's also safe to say that if the Finns didn't choose to stop their advance at the Svir', I wouldn't be alive today. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

09-10-11, 08:14 PM	#3
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,055 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	IIRC, the siege was never complete. Supplies were brought into the city from north, which, in german plans was expected to be blocked by the Finns, who refused to wage offensive war past the areas lost in the Winter War.

09-12-11, 04:16 AM	#7
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Good post Hottentot. Maybe "honourable" was too strong-but compared to what other members of the Axis did Finland looks much less bad. Hey as we discuss ad naseaum here the Western Allies (everyone knows what the Soviets did) did some horrible things as well and it still is a controversial topic.