Massive CEO rewards for tax dodging

[yubba]

I bet their isn't one soul in here that doesn't look for all the deductions that one can take in one's tax return. The government could take everything from everyone and still not be able to pay off the dept, the government got us into this mess, and there is no socalist commie way to get us out of it, the quickier everone figures this out the better, I for one don't think, anyone should be enslaved to this government, the more you raise taxes the more you enslave yourself. And If anybody gripes about oil companies making to much money, why don't you go out into your back yard and produce your own gas to put in your car, and in your home to keep the lights on. If you want more taxes on big oil fine, you'll be paying for it every time you go to the pump. Well puker up Obama is on vacaition at camp David this weekend.

[Catfish]

Hello,
@August since you claim your arguments to be true without ever backing it up, did you bother look at any one link all those people provided ?

@Yubba it was not the current governement alone that brought you into this mess, although it continued the politics that were already planned and intended during the Bush administration - including the dialogue with the islamic world, which was not an idea of Obama surprise surprise, but of Bush's presidential advisors.

Indeed the causes for the financial mess have been thoroughly listed here and in other threads, forums and newspapers worldwide time and time again (maybe NOT FOX NEWS), and it is almost entirely the war costs that would ruin any budget, always, everywhere.
If you criticize "the government" also consisting of conservative Bushs you automatically criticize the oil companies because they were one and the same. Problem is the plans did not work out, but whose fault is that ?

Gosh has anyone in the US still an overview of who did what, why and when ? Obama has to go, right. Bring back a Bush IIIrd, invade Iran and then wonder where the money went.

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hello,
@August since you claim your arguments to be true without ever backing it up, did you bother look at any one link all those people provided ?

Yes I did. Biased trash mostly.

Why do you Germans in particular always insist on telling us how to run our country? You have been doing it for years. Is yours run so much better that you can presume to pass judgement on us?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

Oxymoron. There is no such thing as unfunded tax cuts. That's like saying "dry water" or "sunny night time". You don't spend money that you didn't get, unless apparently you are the Federal government.

Then the natural conclusion to your argument to cut taxes to zero, because none of that would ever be considered spending. If you're dealing with a situation where you're running a balanced budget or surplus, then cutting taxes to the point where it throws you into deficit is damn sure spending.

This on the other hand is spending, and along with the trillions the Democratic controlled Congress used to bail out the automakers in order to keep those union contributors from loosing their overpaid jobs, banks and other thieves has got us into this hole. Sniveling about someone not paying enough is besides the point.

Got it. You hate unions. You hate that middle class Americans enjoy a living wage in safe working environments at a reasonable number of working hours per week. You hate that they've banded together, bargaining collectively so that they might have a bit of leverage against the deep pockets of the corporations and their armies of lawyers.

Well wrong on both counts.

You offer zero evidence of it. A return to the Clinton era tax rates solves most of the deficit over the next 4 years. It solves 40% of it over the next 20. You can see the numbers in black and white.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...s-graphic.html

Meanwhile, you offer no evidence of your position except "nuh uh!" or to immediately dismiss anything counter to your worldview as "biased trash." Of course you never point out the perceived flaws in the facts presented, but you just dismiss it with a wave of your hand as "biased trash." That's intellectually lazy and a sign of a closed mind. And that means is that the argument can never be advanced because you've decided you've won from the outset. Whatever. Done here. This is like pee-peeing in the wind.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Then the natural conclusion to your argument to cut taxes to zero, because none of that would ever be considered spending. If you're dealing with a situation where you're running a balanced budget or surplus, then cutting taxes to the point where it throws you into deficit is damn sure spending.

And the natural conclusion to your argument is to raise taxes to 100%. I made that observation back when Clinton crowed about balancing the budget. Both ideas are extreme, and extremes will kill us.

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Got it. You hate... You hate......You hate

Yeah that's it mookie. If only i could see life through your rosy tinted glasses...

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And the natural conclusion to your argument is to raise taxes to 100%

Well of course not on his middle class union floor sweepers and stockboys. Such things are only upon the evil rich.

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by August

... Corporate profits go to their shareholders who pay income tax. What you're arguing for is basically double taxation.
...

So what happens when corporations don't pay dividends (in profitable years).

.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by August

Personal worth means nothing toward making your point. How do you know he didn't inherit it? How do you know he didn't marry his money like my good Senator John Kerry?

Besides, show me the business big or small that doesn't pay it's employees more than it pays it's shareholders and i'll show you the business that can't afford the talent needed to survive.

As for overseas tax shelters like I just told Gimpy if you have any kind of real proof of someone breaking the law then you ought to report it or you're just spouting political hot air.

Bull. We built the strongest middle class in history when we abolished the monarchy. In the 20th century the definition of middle class was artificially increased to include the factory workers and other lower class jobs. That has proven economically unsustainable not helped at all by the increasing fiscal demands of those lower class workers.

The loss of jobs overseas is a concern to me as well but until the worlds standard and cost of living evens out everywhere on earth the only way to stop it is by becoming economically isolationist. No matter how much you tax corporations you just can't compete with a person to whom the good life is a regular supply of rice and electricity most of the time. He'll outbid the American union member who thinks his assembly line job makes him "middle class" every time.

How silly, it's easy to know what they earned, bonuses, etc...that's reported, but I actually have no problem what they're paid.

Funny, the more lobbying allowed, the more tax shelters that have been given to US corps overseas. You call it fair because it's legal, no, it's bought and paid for. Because of these shelters US corps pay one of the lowest rates in the world.

Geesh, what country are you living in, we never abolished the monarchy, we started our own nation. Our strong middle class was developed in the late 1870's -1980's due to people fighting for fair tax codes, fighting monopolies, fair wages, etc...Many parts of the world were poor then, but our laws worked for Americans.

You hit it when you said the US will be force to go back to working wages and standards of 3rd world nations, because US law allows us to outsource jobs to lands with lil regulation or workers rights, no amount of tax cuts will bring back jobs, just more profits corps can invest creating more jobs overseas.. When americans are willing to take jobs for $2 per hour with no benefits or regulation, maybe they'll come back. Due to cost of living here it would never equal out. Why not go back to the regulations, trade laws and tax code that created a great middle class here. Seems we cut the tax code and we lost many more jobs, that's a fact.

The next generations of Americans will find themselves not a superpower, mass poverty, etc....why new nations build themselves as superpowers off the US corporation.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Yes I did. Biased trash mostly.

Why do you Germans in particular always insist on telling us how to run our country? You have been doing it for years. Is yours run so much better that you can presume to pass judgement on us?

I knew you would play that card sooner or later. But leave the nationalism out here. The debt crisis in the US effects ALL tHE WORLD in consequences, like the debt crisis in Europe also does. You have no right to claim immunity from examination as long as this is so.

Not to mention that since decades your own government tries to lecture the rest of the world on how others should run their countries - and that means: similiar to the american model.

Economy and finances and debt crisis are supranational issues today. The mutual ties and interdependent interactions are too intense nowadays. It was like that before they gave birth to the brainchild named "Globalisation", and it surely has not become less international since then. and the bhig capital travels around the globe in a 24 hour cycle all year long anyway. There is no such thing like national, patriotic big business anymore. At least not in the US or Europe. Big business' loyalty lies not in nations, but where the profit opportunity lies. Corporations are the only real cosmopolitans in this world.

[yubba]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hello,

@Yubba it was not the current governement alone that brought you into this mess, although it continued the politics that were already planned and intended during the Bush administration - including the dialogue with the islamic world, which was not an idea of Obama surprise surprise, but of Bush's presidential advisors.

Indeed the causes for the financial mess have been thoroughly listed here and in other threads, forums and newspapers worldwide time and time again (maybe NOT FOX NEWS), and it is almost entirely the war costs that would ruin any budget, always, everywhere.
If you criticize "the government" also consisting of conservative Bushs you automatically criticize the oil companies because they were one and the same. Problem is the plans did not work out, but whose fault is that ?

Gosh has anyone in the US still an overview of who did what, why and when ? Obama has to go, right. Bring back a Bush IIIrd, invade Iran and then wonder where the money went.

I know blame Bush, Obama had his chance to turn this around but, he could not sway from his liberal agendia, more spending and taxaition, he liked Bushes policies, so much he doubled down on them, doubled the dept, doubled the involvement in the war terror, how many threaters of war are we in now? Unemployment wasn't at 9.1 % when Bush was in office, I can't say that I liked King George. Obama had 2 years with a democratic majority in the house and passed every thing he wanted and look where we are at now, 14 to 16 trillion dollars in debt when it was only 9 trillion when Bush was in office. You spent to much time in the past to see what is going in the present, and we are the one's to be blamed for voting these knotheads in to office.

[MH]

Originally Posted by August

Well of course not on his middle class union floor sweepers and stockboys. Such things are only upon the evil rich.

Why don't you consider than American system went to much to extreme in its capitalistic way just as communism did the other way.
Maybe same regulation are needed to keep companies in check because well...capitalism is about opportunities and in every case that there is a way to screw the system or someone else someone will do it.
Maybe American system has outgrown itself.

I don't like unions as well.
They are OK when kept under control but given too much power turn to extortion syndicates where only the ones close to the plate benefit.

[August]

Originally Posted by Diopos

So what happens when corporations don't pay dividends (in profitable years).

Has that ever happened?

[MH]

'Aggressive tax planning is at odds with social responsibility'

Study: Big firms talk up corporate giving but scrimp on taxes.

By Ram Ozeri






The 25 leading companies on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange pay around NIS 3 billion less a year in taxes than they should be, according to the headline, or declared, corporate tax rate. That is one of the main findings of a study carried out by the Legal Clinic for Corporate Social Responsibility, part of the Academic Center of Law and Business (ACLB ) in Ramat Gan.
The researchers based their study on financial reports for 2006 to 2009 of the companies represented on the TASE TA-25 index. Many of the largest firms, their study shows, make big donations to the community in order to maintain their positive image. But when it comes to paying taxes, there is a big gap between their official tax brackets and the amounts actually paid.


The researchers will present their findings publicly for the first time today, at a conference held by ACLB in cooperation with the Jerusalem Center for Ethics. The center's director is Daniel Milo,
They are quick to note that many factors could explain this gap, including differences in tax rates from one year to the next and legitimate tax breaks granted by the state. But at least some of the differences, they say, are the result of aggressive tax planning.
The researchers also reviewed the corporate giving of these companies - the money they gave to their communities and in support of social responsibility. These numbers were considerable: Fifteen of the 25 companies on the TA-25 index reported combined annual donations of NIS 164 million to various corporate responsibility projects. Assuming that this sample was representative of the whole, they estimated the combined annual contributions of the 25 firms at NIS 274 million.
That puts the ratio of corporate community giving to the "tax expectation gap" - the difference between the headline tax rate for companies and the rate of tax they actually pay - at 1 to 11. For example, the Israel Corporation, which is controlled by the Ofer brothers, donated nearly NIS 100 million to the community from 2006-2009. On the other hand, according to the researchers' calculations (which were based on Israel Corp.'s own financial statements for the period ), the company paid NIS 1.74 billion less in taxes than its declared corporate tax rate would suggest it should have.
For this three-year period, the Israel Corp. reported profits of nearly NIS 11 billion, on which it paid NIS 1.3 billion, reflecting an effective tax rate of just 12%.
In response to the researchers' questions, the Israel Corp. noted that its tax flow payments were materially different from its total tax payments, but did not elaborate.
The researchers also noted that the list of subsidiaries of the Israel Corp. featured companies based in such locations as the Cayman Islands, Bermuda, the Virgin Islands, Switzerland and Luxembourg.
Clueless Israel Corp. said in response: "The Israel Corp. pays taxes in accordance with the law. The company has no idea on what basis the people presenting these figures reached their conclusions, but it is obvious that the figures are in error and totally incorrect, and are misleading."
As to where the company pays taxes, Israel Corp. stated: "Subsidiaries and associates of the Israel Corp. operate throughout the world and pay their taxes according to law. In addition, it must be remembered that most of the group's activities take place abroad."
The picture is similar for Nochi Dankner's IDB group. For the 2006-2009 period it paid NIS 1.8 billion, or 19%, on reported pre-tax profits of NIS 9.4 billion, compared to NIS 2.6 billion according to its headline tax rate. The difference between those amounts was more than NIS 800 million, 16 times more than the IDB group's NIS 41 million in corporate contributions for the three-year period.
In its response, the IDB group also said it pays its taxes, and that there is no connection between its taxes "and the more than NIS 400 million the group has donated since 2006 to hundreds of projects in the Galilee and the Negev, in the areas of education, welfare, health, culture and sports."
At cross-purposes "The corporations' massive spending on aggressive tax planning is not congruent with their boasts of social responsibility," says Ronit Donyets-Kedar of the ACLB.
"Paying taxes is one of our obligations, as individuals and as corporations. There are very heavy arguments against a situation where corporations underwrite opening museums up to the public, on one hand, while on the other evading their moral responsibility to fully pay their taxes," Donyets-Kedar said.
According to Donyets-Kedar, corporate responsibility goes beyond the company's meeting of its legal obligations. Corporate responsibility also means you are a useful member of society.
Jerusalem Center for Ethics director Daniel Milo said companies must remember that tax planning is a murky area of tax law.
At the core of the study is the belief that meeting tax obligations fully is like a dividend paid by the corporation in exchange for the receipt of public services such as security, transportation infrastructure and the education of its employees.

************

[August]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Geesh, what country are you living in, we never abolished the monarchy, we started our own nation. Our strong middle class was developed in the late 1870's -1980's due to people fighting for fair tax codes, fighting monopolies, fair wages, etc...Many parts of the world were poor then, but our laws worked for Americans.

I can do without the sarcasm Armistead.

It seems like you and I have a different definitions of middle class.

To me middle class is a Small Business Owner, Engineer, Teacher, Architect, Doctor, Lawyer and other careers with similar degrees of education and professional qualifications.

What you and others here keep calling middle class are actually working class which in this country have been paid wages that approach those of the middle class.